Question About These 300 Hour New Hires

[328dude]

FlyChicago, nice post.

What everyone is forgetting is that we all in our career's had that 300 hours. Rather than bashing someone that is straight out of school for trying to gain experince, why not give him some of your experince so he can carry it on after you sitting on a retirement check.

Aviation is a never ending learning experince, just because you have 5000 hours, there's always the 10,000 hour pilot that has more.

Where does it all end? This topic is not about experince, it's about EGO's!!!!!

Peace

 

[MetroSheriff]

You have to look at (1) the quality of the individual, and (2) the quality of his/her training.

Not to mention a little bit of luck.


Inflight fires, communication foul-ups, and windshear could happen to any of us.

 

[flyboy]

Typhoon,

I've been scrolling this board to the last post just to make sure that no one else had posted what I wanted to say. You said it 2 posts ago. I have been reading flying magazine for almost 10 years now and in that time, I've read many articles about guys that got jobs with MAJOR airlines, NOT regionals, at 300 hours flying dc9s and 737s. These are those enviable 20,000 hour 777 captains many of the FOs on this board are flying with now. I think they'd all be offended by these comments.
Let me say first that I am an instructor trying to build time to get a real flying job one day. However, I side with those who are doing what it takes to get the job. This is a dog eat dog world and in any other proffesion, you try to get a leg up on others trying to get the same job you are getting. I feel that these schools like TAB express, the former ATA, Regional Airline Academy, etc. are not reliable as airline career builders. They will take your $60k and you may or may not get a job. However, I feel that the Mesa program is legit and have heard zero complaints from any graduate or instructor. I'm not saying that there are unsatisfied MAPD graduates out there, just that I've met many of them and all have been pleased. I don't know about you but I spent around 35k getting my ratings and paying for timebuilding flights under part 61 regs. Now I'm flying a 172 or 182 around the pattern with private students and the occasional instrument or commercial student. I haven't flown a multi in over a year b/c there are no planes for rent in the city where I live. I try to get rides with those who have multi's but they never seem to call me back. I have exhausted all options I can think of and yet most of the flights I get come from instructing these simple aircraft. If I ever get enough flight time to move on, what about my flying makes me prepared to fly a turboprop or a regional jet? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I think that schools like MAPD are the wave of the future and CFI's like me have real competition for those jobs. I don't resent those people. They did what they had to do and didn't spend much more than I did.

I think that most people who are offended by these pilots are those who are jealous that 300 hour pilots are getting jobs and they aren't.

 

[de727ups]

MAPD

How would you guys have felt about the MAPD scheme if JO starting telling the grauates to take a job at Freedom or take a hike? I'd guess that most who drop the money on a program like that would take the job....what else are they gonna do with 300 total time and no CFI? Not like you have a lot of options outside of Mesa.

I see the MAPD as another revenue source for JO. Hope those guys are getting their monies worth for their training...

Sign me up as an "old bittered salt" or "jealous of a 300 hour pilot"....I think it's a bad idea putting 300 hour guys in the right seat of a passenger airline jet.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: MAPD

I think it's a bad idea putting 300 hour guys in the right seat of a passenger airline jet.

How many hours does the average fighter pilot (with no prior civilian flying experience) have when he climbs by himself into a jet with a 20mm cannon and four heat-seeking missiles for the first time, three hundred? Two hundred? Less?

That 1965-66 hiring boom I was talking about...back then there were guys getting hired at major airlines with zero hours. Does that make you feel better?

Again, it's the quality of the individual and their training that are important. (...for a new hire first officer, that is. I wouldn't put a three hundred hour pilot in the left seat of an airliner!) Most airline IP's I've known actually prefer the low-time guys...fewer bad habits to unlearn, easier absorption of airline procedures and techniques.

Sign me up as a "old bittered salt..."

Okay, we will. Must be a generational thing...twenty-five year old F/O's back then were smarter than twenty-five year old F/O's today, I guess.

 

[bssthound]

How many hours does the average fighter pilot (with no prior civilian flying experience) have when he climbs by himself into a jet with a 20mm cannon and four heat-seeking missiles for the first time, three hundred? Two hundred? Less?

Let's not mix apples and oranges. The average fighter pilot has been under a microscope while undergoing the most rigorous flight training in the world. He or she has performed to enormously high standards in a syllabus that affords very little extra training. You get it right the first or second time. The quality of his 200 or so hours at UPT and time at whatever the AT-38 phase is called these days before coming to the FTU is incomporable to anything else. The learning never stops. There are several folks on the military board who can outline this process a lot better than I can.

 

[Typhoon1244]

The average fighter pilot has been under a microscope while undergoing the most rigorous flight training in the world. He or she has performed to enormously high standards in a syllabus that affords very little extra training. You get it right the first or second time. The quality of his 200 or so hours at UPT and time at whatever the AT-38 phase is called these days before coming to the FTU is incomporable to anything else. The learning never stops.

This assumes that AF flight training is superior to all other flight training. I agree that it's different, but better? No, I'm not comfortable with a blanket statement like that.

Besides, I've talked to far too many former AF and Navy guys about people who have become fighter and attack pilots in spite of the services' rigorous screening processes!

 

[bobbysamd]

Mesa cash cow(s)

I see the MAPD as another revenue source for JO . . . .

Of course it is. MAPD predates Frank O (intended) by several years. It originated during the Larry Risley days. Risley knew how to make money. He saw MAPD as a way of getting trained, indoctrinated pilots whom he could program to his way of "thinking" while keeping down his training costs.

In those days Mesa owned several businesses. The technically-correct name for MAPD was San Juan Pilot Training, and it was one of those business. Risley also owned Four Corners Aviation, which was the FBO that was adjacent to the MAPD facility in the terminal. Risley also owned an aircraft maintenance business.

Another of Mesa's hustles was its ATP program. ATP applicants were invited to take the rating at MAPD. They were given something like two Baron flights to prepare, for which they paid, and would take the practical with a Mesa check airman/DE. Only those who passed the first time got Mesa interviews. Some passed the first time . . . . and plenty failed . . . if you catch my drift. As they say at the State Fair, "you pays your money, you takes your chances."

How would you guys have felt about the MAPD scheme if JO starting telling the grauates to take a job at Freedom or take a hike? I'd guess that most who drop the money on a program like that would take the job....what else are they gonna do with 300 total time and no CFI? Not like you have a lot of options outside of Mesa.

That's a very real consideration and another potential downside in these times. Wasn't it earlier this year during the Freedom startup that MAPD grads were being pushed in that direction? I know they were given the choice of being hired now at Freedom or waiting for regular Mesa, which was not hiring. I guess that is a now a non-issue, with Freedom being included in the new union contract. But the pressures for MAPD grads back then to scab were obvious - indeed an offer that couldn't be refused. I would have hated to be a MAPD grad who faced a decision that could harm his/her career before it begins.

Sign me up as an "old bittered salt" or "jealous of a 300 hour pilot"....I think it's a bad idea putting 300 hour guys in the right seat of a passenger airline jet.

Perhaps. Originally, MAPD people went into the right seat of Beech 1900s. All their training, in A36 Bonanzas and B58 Barons, led logically to and facilitated that objective. It wasn't an altogether difficult transition to the 1900 from the Baron. Students received ten hours of 1900 time, and, ten years ago, a 135 letter as well. The program was organized and logical - another reason why I like it.

But, now, I find the following to be very odd. I interviewed at Mesa in 1990 with Mesa's Mr. Beech 1900, Grady Reed. At that time RJs were on the drawing boards and were featured in professional pilot magazines. When Reed invited me to ask questions, I asked if Mesa planned to acquire RJs. He said "no" and he was clearly annoyed with my question. I was not hired. Given that RJs were industry news and the wave of the future I do not feel that I asked an inappropriate question. Now look what Mesa is flying - and who is flying them.

 

[bssthound]

Besides, I've talked to far too many former AF and Navy guys about people who have become fighter and attack pilots in spite of the services' rigorous screening processes!

Absolutely. No system is foolproof. But the person like that you hear about is an anomaly. The one guy in the squadron who somehow ended up where he shouldn't be. Not only that, he's probably a capable pilot as far as the entry level skills, i.e. taking off, landing, etc., but when your business is kill or be killed the level of competition is way up there. I saw that in the Phantom. We had an enormous amount of talent but there were one or two who were out of their league.

Having said that I will end by saying that by far the lion's share of folks flying the fast movers are highly motivated, highly trainable, topnotch pilots. Period.

BTW, I'm certain you and I both know people who shouldn't be at ASA despite our company's rigorous screening processes!

 

[Publishers]

One size

This is not a one size fits all issue and if you think about it, you would agree.

You can get a thousand hours and not know much at all. You can get the majority of that time flying Barons on check runs in the midwest in winter at night and be pretty efficient and sharp.

I have had the opportunity to fly a bunch of pistons and jets and never knew much about the systems and emergency procedures at all. Granted, I was not trying to be a commercial pilot for hire so at the time it may not have been as important.

The point is that these concentrated programs at just that, concentrated and intense. There is little flying around at cruise building time. You learn the systems of a specific aircraft and away you go. The last time I looked, you have to pass the same level of testing and checks that the guy with 5000 hours in your class does.

Let's face it, for some that have 10 years experience, it was one years experience repeated over and over for 10 years.

There was a recent case I am familiar with where a commercial furloughed pilot was terminated from a corporate job. In talking with their boss, what I heard was that the guy had forgotton how to do everything. He had a hard time having to do his own weather and flight plans, checking fuelings, briefing passengers, etc. He had experience but had forgot how to deal with everyday flying

 

[Herman Bloom]

Consider this...

One reason the military only gives its candidates one or two shots is COST. It must be very expensive to train a pilot from the ground all the way up to light jets, especially combat jets (dare I guess...over a million?). This approach doesn't necesarily create a safe pilot. But then again, I don't think the military wants fighter pilots to be all that safe (more important to be aggressive, perhaps?). Point is, while it may be comparing apples and oranges, it is still an important comparison to make. What makes a great fighter pilot may indeed make for a less than optimal airline pilot (in theory). My opinion is that the whole "fighter pilots are the greatest" thing is perpetuated by fighter pilots. A hefty ego, after all, is probably a pretty reliable indication of the type of personality that the military looks for in a combat pilot. And it should be.

Just my opinion, but I'm getting fed up with hearing all these military guys talk about themselves.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Passing a 121 checkride is the beginning of meeting the requirements for the job, not the end. Frankly, any monkey can pass a 121 FO ride - I've seen it. If the company wants them to pass, they wil get them through. What is far more telling is the learning curve. A pilot with real world experience will have a greater margin over the 300 hr pilot when it comes to suitability, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL. This is true no matter how well the 'academy' guy flies the sim.

There are some pilots who ARE ready at 300 or 600 hours, for certain. To assume that most are really ready at that experience level is a stretch.

The comparison to 300 hr military pilots is entirely invalid. If you require an explanation, you don't understand the difference between military training methods and operations.

Give the slots to those who have paid their dues in the system. Not those who are looking to bypass the character-building side of this industry.

FlyChicaga - You have some good experience, and it sounds like you would be a good candidate for an early move to a regional. Not everyone is working as earnestly as you. Lots of 'em just want the uniform. "Tell me the minimum that I have to learn to be an airline pilot." You know the type.

 

[bssthound]

But then again, I don't think the military wants fighter pilots to be all that safe (more important to be aggressive, perhaps?).

Negative. While it is important to be aggressive, the military is very, very big on safety. This is not point-to point flying at FL350. When you fly low and fast and are training for multiple low-altitude threats a jet is occasionally going to be lost. Most units go many years without losing one.

The military spends a lot of money training its people and a jet fighter costs many millions of dollars. Anyone who's been in that business for more than a few years has lost friends. These folks (a) don't want to be next and (b) are very determined to prevent its happening again.

Just my opinion, but I'm getting fed up with hearing all these military guys talk about themselves

Sorry, I'm just trying to offer the perspective from someone who actually has flown in the military and known people who've excelled at an extremely demanding program. Just like any other endeavor, most people who've not been in the military don't really understand it. Sure, there are some egos, but not nearly as many as most people assume. Of course, when you're training to kill or be killed and you're not pretty durn confident you can knock Gomer on his a$$ you're on the wrong playing field.

 

[FL000]

How many regional captains have you seen on this board that could be described as "enjoying life?"

Here's one.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Here is another!

On the subject of 300 Hour wonders - anyone should grab a flying job whenever the opportunity presents itself. We guys with 5,000 plus hours grabbed the first, best, job we could get. About 15 minutes later we started complaining, but eh' that is what pilots do.

My experience has been that night cargo and corporate guys do the best out on the line as new first officers in the 121 environment. A lot is attitude and the guys who have flown 135 understand when things go badly stay focused on the job. They also understand that every job might be your last job.

Many of the 300 hour wonders are now frustrated with the fact they have to fly at Delta Connection ( "shouldn't we be at Delta by now, heck I'm 25 years old for crying out loud" ). The old saw about not appreciating what you don't have to work for is true.

The programs that put 300 hour pilots in the right seat put an awful lot of pressure on the 3,000 hour Captain in the left seat. Can it be done? Sure. On a pretty day with nothing deferred under optimum conditions it works out pretty well. However, on a 200 & 1 night with contaminated runways, a deferred APU, a pair of PO'd flight attendants I would prefer the 6,500 hour FO who doesn't want to ruin the "quality of life" by upgrading "early."

But the truth is, who flies on the broken airplanes on 200 & 1/2 nights with light freezing precip? The junior guys, the junior Captains with the most junior FO's on reserve. The situation is ripe for getting in trouble and many do.

For those considering paying huge money for sim time and an interview, try to talk to one of the pilots who do the interviewing. Sometimes the schemes put together by the VP of Human Resources do not pass muster with the senior line pilots who usually are involved in the interview process. Those senior pilots are the ones who have been out there on line and they are looking for someone they would not mind flying a month of four day trips with, they don't really care where you went to school. Most of these guys are eager to help and having a little help on the inside never hurt - a lesson well learned by those guys who are applying for the same jobs with 3,500 hours and a couple of type ratings.

Best regards,
~~~^~~~

 

[KingAirer]

Where does it leave us?

Im not quite sure where this discussion leaves pilots with a 4 year degree, 1000+TT, 300+ multi, 8 years in aviation, couple of years line service, flown all over the country, and flown some crappy airplanes. I guess we'll just have better stories to share and maybe we'll enjoy "the" job better when we get there. Its tough not to be somewhat bitter (for lack of a better word) when you hear of people getting hired with airline after they have been involved with aviation maybe a year or two, and paying more money than I can imagine for training. This is just part of "the game" of aviation and im still learning. I have more respect than you can imagine for those guys who have been furloughed and taken jobs at the bottom of the barrel and flying as FOs to those who may have less time then they have in the seat beside them.

Keepin' the faith,
Kingairer

 

[GEUAviator]

Wow! I guess I stirred up quite a bit of opinions with my initial question.

Thanks for all the replies.

I guess I'm a little more informed now. I was under the impression that most of the 300 hour pilots went straight to the right seat of an RJ (or something comparable). I had no idea that these same pilots STILL need minimums (ie. 1,000 100) before they get a job.

By the way, no jealousy on my part. The "300 hour wonder" comment is not so much my opinion as it is a marketing tool used by many part 141 schools.

Example (I saw this blurb for a couple of different schools):

"You will become a professional pilot without ever having to flight instruct" (Very loosely quoted)

While I don't foresee myself instructing for the rest of my aviation career, I do enjoy it and I learn something new every day! There is no regret on my part after choosing the CFI route.

Adios,
GEUAviator

 

[bssthound]

Excellent post, ~~~^~~~
There's been a lot of digression, a good bit of it my doing, but you really hit the nail on the head.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I'm certain you and I both know people who shouldn't be at ASA despite our company's rigorous screening processes!

True...and some of them have 300 hours. I don't worry about a guy with 300 hours who's flying skills need a lot of work. It's the guys with 10,000 hours who need a lot of work that bother me!

 

[100LL... Again!]

The same get-there-quick attitude that causes people to want to get into an airline cockpit TODAY may also, as a previous poster noted, become frustrated when the fast advancement stops.

Second of all, those who possess this attitude (IN MY OPINION) are also more likely to cave on contract issues, since they seem to have less respect for all phases of the profession and are only interested in 'getting theirs'.

A seniority list full of these guys would scare me if I was a senior pilot.

Suffering and adversity builds character - sorely lacking in this modern world. The attitude : "Gimme mine now! I know I wasn't here first, but that has nothing to do with it."

 

[bssthound]

I don't worry about a guy with 300 hours who's flying skills need a lot of work. It's the guys with 10,000 hours who need a lot of work that bother me!

Amen! That is exactly what I was implying!

 

[Typhoon1244]

The same get-there-quick attitude that causes people to want to get into an airline cockpit TODAY may also, as a previous poster noted, become frustrated when the fast advancement stops.

It's been my experience that everybody becomes frustrated when fast advancement stops.

Second of all, those who possess this [get-there-quick attitude] are also more likely to cave on contract issues, since they seem to have less respect for all phases of the profession and are only interested in 'getting theirs.'

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, there are a lot of "wonder pilots" out there whose parents were pilots and they know how the system works...but they also have the money, so why not take a shortcut? At any rate, I don't think a "300-hour wonder" who happenes to be the child of, say, an Eastern striker is likely to cave on contract issues. 300-hours means inexperienced, not stupid.

On the other hand, look what happened at Chicago Express recently.

Suffering and adversity builds character...

(Speaking of Eastern,) guys who crossed the picket lines in March of '89 had a hellova lot more than 300 hours. Apparently, whether or not "suffering and adversity builds character" still depends on the individual!

 

[Anaconda]

To the best of my knowledge, Comair has NEVER hired any 300 hour pilots from the "academy" or anywhere else.

i just might have to take exception to this statement...

i had been hearing talk of comair picking up some 300-hour wonders in recent months that were delta interns. recently i was displaced off of the first day of a four-day trip that involved numerous boston turns. when i met the captain on the second day, he told me the reason we were displaced is because two ioe check airman took the trip so that a jumpseating intern could observe operations out of boston and high-density NE airspace. apparently this is because of the poor performance of the interns during training.

as if that isn't enough, supposedly these are DAL interns, with promises of a job at DAL when (or IF) DAL ever starts hiring again.

anyone care to confirm if this is true?

 

[generaltso]

DAL doesn't guarantee Delta Interns a job or interview as a pilot. However, the internship does carry a lot of weight as a pilot applicant (as it should)

 

[eddie]

Why should spending three months of your college life working for an airline "carry a lot of weight" as a pilot applicant?

 

[surplus1]

Re: Where does it leave us?

Im not quite sure where this discussion leaves pilots with a 4 year degree, 1000+TT, 300+ multi, 8 years in aviation, couple of years line service, flown all over the country, and flown some crappy airplanes.

About the same place it leaves an ex military pilot with a couple thousand hours of which over a thousand are in a 4-engine aircraft and of course a 4-year degree, when almost nobody is hiring. That guy "made it" (more than once) and so can you.

A couple of things we should remember in this discussion is that "hours" in a log book do not necessarily equate to "experience" and experience is not necessarily equated to hours.

Being in the right place at the right time and good old "Lady Luck" probably have a lot more to do with getting hired into your "dream job" (whatever that is) as hours, experience or both. If your dreams are not tainted with a lack of realism you'll probably wind up a happy camper somewhere along the way.

As someone said earlier, you can have one hour of experience repeated 10,000 times. Different types of experience/training may make you an ace fighter pilot but a mediocre airline pilot just as readily as being an old airline salt can't make you an ace fighter pilot. All things are relative. "Fate is the Hunter".

I have more respect than you can imagine for those guys who have been furloughed and taken jobs at the bottom of the barrel and flying as FOs to those who may have less time then they have in the seat beside them.

One of the best things that a true professional aviator learns about flying over the years is humility. Pride has no place in the cockpit. The fancy hat with the thunder/lightning/clouds plays well with the ladies in the terminal but when one sits down, in either seat, the hat should be tossed and the "pride switch" selected to OFF.

If the furloughed or layed off pilot has been around long enough to have acquired the desired "humility", it will not matter much that he sits in the right seat next to a boy who is "captain" of a machine that he could have previously carried (dissambled) in one of the baggage compartments of the aircraft that he formely captained himself. They'll get along just fine.

The process of being an aviator is one of continuous learning, no matter how many "hours" you might accumulate, where you happened to work before or what you happened to fly. When you've made the very first flight on which you learned absolutely nothing, it is probably time to retire (regardless of how long you've been playing this game).

Fly safe all of you and don't worry too much about who has how many hours of what. We all start with zero and there will always be a great many people that know more than you and are better "sticks" than you no matter how many "hours" you have or how few hours they have.

A successful flight is any one that ends where it began .... parked at the gate with all the pieces assembled as they were when you started, and the geese happily on their way to wherever they were going.

With all the bumps and lumps, airplane driving is still a pleasant avocation. It's been "down" before and "up" before and the cycles will continue. If you just do it for the bucks, go get a better job. If you really enjoy it, then you can survive even the perfect storm.

 

[CaSyndrm]

I don't think the piloting time or qualifications matters. If any company offers a pilot a seniority number he or she should take it and any complaints regarding qualifications should be directed at the HR departments not the pilots.

 

[172driver]

Comair has two in class and just interviewed two more from this program: http://www.wmich.edu/aviation/programs/accelerated.htm

Don't know of any internships that they participated in or how they might be faring in training but...they're in class with 200-300 TT. Anyone know the details? Does Comair have an agreement with WMU?

 

[jetdriven]

The instructing, flying cargo, flying poorly maintained airplanes, and having bad stuff happens to you pays off later in your life. You only get to have a fatal crash once, experience will save you. If the thrust had been reduced on the CLT B1900 crash just maybe she could have flown it out. You regional guys give a try in the sim and you will see what I am talking about.........coming from a stuctured learning situation doesn't give one the open mind needed for a real problem. Read the latest Flying article, the Alaska MD-83 that crashed. The captain was thrilled because they got the airplane flying again prior to impact, it was inverted but it was flying.... Those guys stayed with it all the way to the end.

the thrust was reduced and they still crashed. We have flown the profile in the 1900D simin ICT dozens of times and we crashed every time. besides, the captain had about 3000 hours and came from a part 61 flight environment.
The airplane was so badly misrigged it could have never flwon at that CG and weight.