Question About These 300 Hour New Hires

[Herman Bloom]

Consider this...

One reason the military only gives its candidates one or two shots is COST. It must be very expensive to train a pilot from the ground all the way up to light jets, especially combat jets (dare I guess...over a million?). This approach doesn't necesarily create a safe pilot. But then again, I don't think the military wants fighter pilots to be all that safe (more important to be aggressive, perhaps?). Point is, while it may be comparing apples and oranges, it is still an important comparison to make. What makes a great fighter pilot may indeed make for a less than optimal airline pilot (in theory). My opinion is that the whole "fighter pilots are the greatest" thing is perpetuated by fighter pilots. A hefty ego, after all, is probably a pretty reliable indication of the type of personality that the military looks for in a combat pilot. And it should be.

Just my opinion, but I'm getting fed up with hearing all these military guys talk about themselves.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Passing a 121 checkride is the beginning of meeting the requirements for the job, not the end. Frankly, any monkey can pass a 121 FO ride - I've seen it. If the company wants them to pass, they wil get them through. What is far more telling is the learning curve. A pilot with real world experience will have a greater margin over the 300 hr pilot when it comes to suitability, ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL. This is true no matter how well the 'academy' guy flies the sim.

There are some pilots who ARE ready at 300 or 600 hours, for certain. To assume that most are really ready at that experience level is a stretch.

The comparison to 300 hr military pilots is entirely invalid. If you require an explanation, you don't understand the difference between military training methods and operations.

Give the slots to those who have paid their dues in the system. Not those who are looking to bypass the character-building side of this industry.

FlyChicaga - You have some good experience, and it sounds like you would be a good candidate for an early move to a regional. Not everyone is working as earnestly as you. Lots of 'em just want the uniform. "Tell me the minimum that I have to learn to be an airline pilot." You know the type.

 

[bssthound]

But then again, I don't think the military wants fighter pilots to be all that safe (more important to be aggressive, perhaps?).

Negative. While it is important to be aggressive, the military is very, very big on safety. This is not point-to point flying at FL350. When you fly low and fast and are training for multiple low-altitude threats a jet is occasionally going to be lost. Most units go many years without losing one.

The military spends a lot of money training its people and a jet fighter costs many millions of dollars. Anyone who's been in that business for more than a few years has lost friends. These folks (a) don't want to be next and (b) are very determined to prevent its happening again.

Just my opinion, but I'm getting fed up with hearing all these military guys talk about themselves

Sorry, I'm just trying to offer the perspective from someone who actually has flown in the military and known people who've excelled at an extremely demanding program. Just like any other endeavor, most people who've not been in the military don't really understand it. Sure, there are some egos, but not nearly as many as most people assume. Of course, when you're training to kill or be killed and you're not pretty durn confident you can knock Gomer on his a$$ you're on the wrong playing field.

 

[FL000]

How many regional captains have you seen on this board that could be described as "enjoying life?"

Here's one.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Here is another!

On the subject of 300 Hour wonders - anyone should grab a flying job whenever the opportunity presents itself. We guys with 5,000 plus hours grabbed the first, best, job we could get. About 15 minutes later we started complaining, but eh' that is what pilots do.

My experience has been that night cargo and corporate guys do the best out on the line as new first officers in the 121 environment. A lot is attitude and the guys who have flown 135 understand when things go badly stay focused on the job. They also understand that every job might be your last job.

Many of the 300 hour wonders are now frustrated with the fact they have to fly at Delta Connection ( "shouldn't we be at Delta by now, heck I'm 25 years old for crying out loud" ). The old saw about not appreciating what you don't have to work for is true.

The programs that put 300 hour pilots in the right seat put an awful lot of pressure on the 3,000 hour Captain in the left seat. Can it be done? Sure. On a pretty day with nothing deferred under optimum conditions it works out pretty well. However, on a 200 & 1 night with contaminated runways, a deferred APU, a pair of PO'd flight attendants I would prefer the 6,500 hour FO who doesn't want to ruin the "quality of life" by upgrading "early."

But the truth is, who flies on the broken airplanes on 200 & 1/2 nights with light freezing precip? The junior guys, the junior Captains with the most junior FO's on reserve. The situation is ripe for getting in trouble and many do.

For those considering paying huge money for sim time and an interview, try to talk to one of the pilots who do the interviewing. Sometimes the schemes put together by the VP of Human Resources do not pass muster with the senior line pilots who usually are involved in the interview process. Those senior pilots are the ones who have been out there on line and they are looking for someone they would not mind flying a month of four day trips with, they don't really care where you went to school. Most of these guys are eager to help and having a little help on the inside never hurt - a lesson well learned by those guys who are applying for the same jobs with 3,500 hours and a couple of type ratings.

Best regards,
~~~^~~~

 

[KingAirer]

Where does it leave us?

Im not quite sure where this discussion leaves pilots with a 4 year degree, 1000+TT, 300+ multi, 8 years in aviation, couple of years line service, flown all over the country, and flown some crappy airplanes. I guess we'll just have better stories to share and maybe we'll enjoy "the" job better when we get there. Its tough not to be somewhat bitter (for lack of a better word) when you hear of people getting hired with airline after they have been involved with aviation maybe a year or two, and paying more money than I can imagine for training. This is just part of "the game" of aviation and im still learning. I have more respect than you can imagine for those guys who have been furloughed and taken jobs at the bottom of the barrel and flying as FOs to those who may have less time then they have in the seat beside them.

Keepin' the faith,
Kingairer

 

[GEUAviator]

Wow! I guess I stirred up quite a bit of opinions with my initial question.

Thanks for all the replies.

I guess I'm a little more informed now. I was under the impression that most of the 300 hour pilots went straight to the right seat of an RJ (or something comparable). I had no idea that these same pilots STILL need minimums (ie. 1,000 100) before they get a job.

By the way, no jealousy on my part. The "300 hour wonder" comment is not so much my opinion as it is a marketing tool used by many part 141 schools.

Example (I saw this blurb for a couple of different schools):

"You will become a professional pilot without ever having to flight instruct" (Very loosely quoted)

While I don't foresee myself instructing for the rest of my aviation career, I do enjoy it and I learn something new every day! There is no regret on my part after choosing the CFI route.

Adios,
GEUAviator

 

[bssthound]

Excellent post, ~~~^~~~
There's been a lot of digression, a good bit of it my doing, but you really hit the nail on the head.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I'm certain you and I both know people who shouldn't be at ASA despite our company's rigorous screening processes!

True...and some of them have 300 hours. I don't worry about a guy with 300 hours who's flying skills need a lot of work. It's the guys with 10,000 hours who need a lot of work that bother me!

 

[100LL... Again!]

The same get-there-quick attitude that causes people to want to get into an airline cockpit TODAY may also, as a previous poster noted, become frustrated when the fast advancement stops.

Second of all, those who possess this attitude (IN MY OPINION) are also more likely to cave on contract issues, since they seem to have less respect for all phases of the profession and are only interested in 'getting theirs'.

A seniority list full of these guys would scare me if I was a senior pilot.

Suffering and adversity builds character - sorely lacking in this modern world. The attitude : "Gimme mine now! I know I wasn't here first, but that has nothing to do with it."

 

[bssthound]

I don't worry about a guy with 300 hours who's flying skills need a lot of work. It's the guys with 10,000 hours who need a lot of work that bother me!

Amen! That is exactly what I was implying!

 

[Typhoon1244]

The same get-there-quick attitude that causes people to want to get into an airline cockpit TODAY may also, as a previous poster noted, become frustrated when the fast advancement stops.

It's been my experience that everybody becomes frustrated when fast advancement stops.

Second of all, those who possess this [get-there-quick attitude] are also more likely to cave on contract issues, since they seem to have less respect for all phases of the profession and are only interested in 'getting theirs.'

I'm of two minds about this. On the one hand, there are a lot of "wonder pilots" out there whose parents were pilots and they know how the system works...but they also have the money, so why not take a shortcut? At any rate, I don't think a "300-hour wonder" who happenes to be the child of, say, an Eastern striker is likely to cave on contract issues. 300-hours means inexperienced, not stupid.

On the other hand, look what happened at Chicago Express recently.

Suffering and adversity builds character...

(Speaking of Eastern,) guys who crossed the picket lines in March of '89 had a hellova lot more than 300 hours. Apparently, whether or not "suffering and adversity builds character" still depends on the individual!

 

[Anaconda]

To the best of my knowledge, Comair has NEVER hired any 300 hour pilots from the "academy" or anywhere else.

i just might have to take exception to this statement...

i had been hearing talk of comair picking up some 300-hour wonders in recent months that were delta interns. recently i was displaced off of the first day of a four-day trip that involved numerous boston turns. when i met the captain on the second day, he told me the reason we were displaced is because two ioe check airman took the trip so that a jumpseating intern could observe operations out of boston and high-density NE airspace. apparently this is because of the poor performance of the interns during training.

as if that isn't enough, supposedly these are DAL interns, with promises of a job at DAL when (or IF) DAL ever starts hiring again.

anyone care to confirm if this is true?

 

[generaltso]

DAL doesn't guarantee Delta Interns a job or interview as a pilot. However, the internship does carry a lot of weight as a pilot applicant (as it should)

 

[eddie]

Why should spending three months of your college life working for an airline "carry a lot of weight" as a pilot applicant?

 

[surplus1]

Re: Where does it leave us?

Im not quite sure where this discussion leaves pilots with a 4 year degree, 1000+TT, 300+ multi, 8 years in aviation, couple of years line service, flown all over the country, and flown some crappy airplanes.

About the same place it leaves an ex military pilot with a couple thousand hours of which over a thousand are in a 4-engine aircraft and of course a 4-year degree, when almost nobody is hiring. That guy "made it" (more than once) and so can you.

A couple of things we should remember in this discussion is that "hours" in a log book do not necessarily equate to "experience" and experience is not necessarily equated to hours.

Being in the right place at the right time and good old "Lady Luck" probably have a lot more to do with getting hired into your "dream job" (whatever that is) as hours, experience or both. If your dreams are not tainted with a lack of realism you'll probably wind up a happy camper somewhere along the way.

As someone said earlier, you can have one hour of experience repeated 10,000 times. Different types of experience/training may make you an ace fighter pilot but a mediocre airline pilot just as readily as being an old airline salt can't make you an ace fighter pilot. All things are relative. "Fate is the Hunter".

I have more respect than you can imagine for those guys who have been furloughed and taken jobs at the bottom of the barrel and flying as FOs to those who may have less time then they have in the seat beside them.

One of the best things that a true professional aviator learns about flying over the years is humility. Pride has no place in the cockpit. The fancy hat with the thunder/lightning/clouds plays well with the ladies in the terminal but when one sits down, in either seat, the hat should be tossed and the "pride switch" selected to OFF.

If the furloughed or layed off pilot has been around long enough to have acquired the desired "humility", it will not matter much that he sits in the right seat next to a boy who is "captain" of a machine that he could have previously carried (dissambled) in one of the baggage compartments of the aircraft that he formely captained himself. They'll get along just fine.

The process of being an aviator is one of continuous learning, no matter how many "hours" you might accumulate, where you happened to work before or what you happened to fly. When you've made the very first flight on which you learned absolutely nothing, it is probably time to retire (regardless of how long you've been playing this game).

Fly safe all of you and don't worry too much about who has how many hours of what. We all start with zero and there will always be a great many people that know more than you and are better "sticks" than you no matter how many "hours" you have or how few hours they have.

A successful flight is any one that ends where it began .... parked at the gate with all the pieces assembled as they were when you started, and the geese happily on their way to wherever they were going.

With all the bumps and lumps, airplane driving is still a pleasant avocation. It's been "down" before and "up" before and the cycles will continue. If you just do it for the bucks, go get a better job. If you really enjoy it, then you can survive even the perfect storm.

 

[CaSyndrm]

I don't think the piloting time or qualifications matters. If any company offers a pilot a seniority number he or she should take it and any complaints regarding qualifications should be directed at the HR departments not the pilots.

 

[172driver]

Comair has two in class and just interviewed two more from this program: http://www.wmich.edu/aviation/programs/accelerated.htm

Don't know of any internships that they participated in or how they might be faring in training but...they're in class with 200-300 TT. Anyone know the details? Does Comair have an agreement with WMU?

 

[jetdriven]

The instructing, flying cargo, flying poorly maintained airplanes, and having bad stuff happens to you pays off later in your life. You only get to have a fatal crash once, experience will save you. If the thrust had been reduced on the CLT B1900 crash just maybe she could have flown it out. You regional guys give a try in the sim and you will see what I am talking about.........coming from a stuctured learning situation doesn't give one the open mind needed for a real problem. Read the latest Flying article, the Alaska MD-83 that crashed. The captain was thrilled because they got the airplane flying again prior to impact, it was inverted but it was flying.... Those guys stayed with it all the way to the end.

the thrust was reduced and they still crashed. We have flown the profile in the 1900D simin ICT dozens of times and we crashed every time. besides, the captain had about 3000 hours and came from a part 61 flight environment.
The airplane was so badly misrigged it could have never flwon at that CG and weight.