Question About These 300 Hour New Hires

[bobbysamd]

Ab initio-trained FOs on the line

Originally posted by captainv
out on line, he's seeing stuff he's never seen before, high altitude flight, weather, etc., etc. but you know what? he's got at least a couple of years in the right seat to soak all that up before he upgrades . . . .

That is really the point. Agreed, a 300-hour MAPD grad is well booked-learned and is thoroughly drilled in procedures. His/her opportunity to learn is indeed on the line. That's where he/she will soak up experience and real-world know-how.

Think about it a moment. The person is going on the line at 300 hours. Let's say that over the next year the FO flies his/her 1000 hours. Clearly, after a year that person has 1000 hours more experience and has had a chance to apply his/her MAPD training. You really learn when you can take your training and apply it to practical situations.

Which, to me, is a potential downside of going to an ab initio school during bad hiring times. Momentum builds. You are flying regularly during training and are absorbing new learning, you have attended and passed "the interview," but Mesa is not hiring. So, you become a poolie and might be inactive when you should be in class having your learning and procedures reinforced. Your skills were well-honed when you made it through the interview. Because you don't have enough experience, you can lose some of your proficiency and it could take a while before you get it back. This is especially true for new instrument pilots. A more experienced pilot is less likely to lose proficiency because of inactivity simply because he/she has been doing it long and has had more reps.

(I probably should watch out what I say. I might have nearly 4600 hours and have had abundant "reps" demonstrating maneuvers, but I have not flown an airplane in 9 1/2 years!)

If you go to a more standard 141 school, get your CFI, and can at least fly some, you can acquire experience and handle the controls enough to retain some measure of proficiency. Of course, a MAPD poolie could go get a CFI in order to find work. That person might feel resentful about having to do so after receiving all the Mesa hiring pablum. That would be understandable, but you have been warned.

Just some more $0.02 food for thought.

 

[surplus1]

i think the only people who would have an advantage over you would be comair academy graduates because they are owned by comair and most of them get hired by comair.

For the sake of clarification, I think there is a misconception here with respect to Comair. To the best of my knowledge, Comair has NEVER hired any 300 hour pilots from the "academy" or anywhere else.

The pilots that Comair hires out of the academy must first work for the "academy" as flight instructors for an entire year after which some, not all, of them will get a guaranteed interview (not a job) at Comair. Many never even get the interview. No one gets interviews at Comair by merely completing the ab-initio training, and not everyone gets the interview to become an academy instructor. Its very selective (though somewhat subjective).

By the time an "academy instructor" gets the airline interview, their total time includes the ab-initio training time plus the flight instructor time and generally meets or exceeds the posted hiring minimums of 1200/200. This was so before the current industry crisis and has not changed because of it. Comair has not had a "problem" recruiting qualified pilot applicants, including during the "hiring boom", and even during the time frame when there was a separate AQP at the academy that was a quasi-PFT program several years back and which never applied to the jet equipment.

In most cases, the pilots that complete the academy program and get interviews are better qualified (for the particular job) than a CFI from an FBO, because the entire program, including the year of instructing at the academy, is tailored to produce an entry-level Comair pilot. The pilots hired out of this program almost always do very well in the airlines' training program and subsequently on line. However, they are NOT 300-hour pilots.

It's not a "big deal" at all, but I did think it should be clarified. I know nothing about Mesa's program and do not mean to criticize it. However, the two "programs" appear to be quite different in final application. Comparing CMR and MES seems to be apples to oranges in many ways.

For example, there are no 1500 hour captains at Comair. The absolute minimum for upgrade is 3000 hours total, 1000 hours multi and 500 hours with the Company. While waivers are possible, they can't happen without the unions's endorsement and they don't. If you don't meet the minimums for some reason you are bypassed until you do - a relatively rare event. Also, the airline doesn't hire "street captains" and hasn't done so in the last 15 years. Our contract doesn't permit that.

 

[WrightAvia]

Good argument but...

I don't care what you guys come up with on this...I go on vacation in a couple of weeks and for a change I am flying on the airlines instead of renting an Aztec or Seneca. Had many choices available in brands...but good old NWA had some flights where I could get home and back, without using code sharing partners or contractors. That's the route I took and that's where I spent my money.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

I imagine many low time pilots are great pilots. Experience is highly valuable though. If I were an airline captain (or corporate captain) flying with a new FO I would like him to have seen more than once: icing, approaches to minimums, approaches and landing in rain and snow and fog, viscious crosswinds, experience in moderate or severe turbulence, actual missed approaches, making decisions like diverting or holding till the weather had improved, making decisions like climbing or descending due to headwinds/tailwinds or turbulence or terrain, making decisions about inoperative equipment, and most of all actually experiencing and responding to abnormal and emergency situations. If I were an airline captain I would prefer my FO gained this experience through flying professionally because then there is the added reality of creating revenue for your company and being on-time while being a safe pilot. All of these situations are great in the simulator or in an airplane in a training environment but real experience comes from acutally flying an airplane and actually having to make these decisions in the air. I realize that it isn't always possible for an airline new hire to have experienced all of these things but I find it highly unlikely that a 300-hour pilot has experienced many (or any) of these things.

 

[350DRIVER]

boo-
I agree, pretty sad he would make such an ignorant and senseless comment like that however it is usually the old bitter salts that are "fixated" on the TT and low experience philosophy. That is pretty much the bottom line, fortunately Mesa will continue to prove these guys wrong time after time.....


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[328dude]

I was shocked at that comment too.

Turbo, you usally have very well informed post's on here and enjoy most of them, but that one was uncalled for. That wasway out of line dude.

 

[bssthound]

According to captainv
... and he absolutely kicked all of our a$$es in ground school. this guy came in, studied hard, and knew his stuff backwards and forwards. he was light years ahead of us the whole time.

That's the bottom line. You'll have lowtimers come in determined to make the most of an opportunity and give it their all. Granted, there is experience to be gained but it's usually a pretty long wait in the right seat during which that "cup of knowledge" begins to fill up.


i'm sure we have our share of 300TT deadweights, but i haven't run across any...

On that note, I'm sure we've all seen our share of 3,000TT plus deadweights, haven't we?

 

[TurboS7]

To those that I offended I am sorry. I do not know any of the crew members involved in either of the accidents that I talked about. Neither have I done a comprehensive study of those accidents nor do I care to. So just for the learning process lets just say the accidents didn't happen and we are just thinking, what if ...........I do not have access to a B1900D sim, some of you guys do, all I was asking was on your next sim check give it a try, if it works it might save your life. Knowing what I know about very experienced pilots Captain Leslie would be smiling knowing that her misfortune just may save your life and those passengers flying with you.

 

[Typhoon1244]

My dad got hired by a major in 1966. He had about three hundred hours at the time. His training up until that time was, by today's standards, a little disorganized...a flight school here, a freelance CFI there, etc. An awful lot of guys with similar qualifications got hired at the same time. Most of them, like my father, flew safely and successfully for the next thirty-five-plus years.

My point is that "300-Hour Wonder Pilots" are not a new phenomenon in aviation. Remember, most of the worst accidents in airline history (the Everglades, Tenerife, the Delta '1011 in Dallas) revolved around crews with tremendous experience, not 300-hour wonders.

You have to look at (1) the quality of the individual, and (2) the quality of his/her training.

 

[TurboS7]

We have some of those "300 hour 1965 wonders" flying with us at the airline I am at now. I must say that they are the most professional and fantastic pilots that I have flown with.