Question About These 300 Hour New Hires

[GEUAviator]

So, I'm flipping through my latest copy of AOPA Flight Training while sitting on the porcelain god, and I see TONS of ads from overpriced flight schools offering guaranteed airline interviews for their graduates.

As a struggling CFI at a Part 61 school, I'm a little disturbed by this.

If and when there is another hiring boom for the regionals, will these 300 hour wonder pilots have an edge over someone like myself who may have tons of time but did not attend one of these schools?

You know the ones I'm talking about...

Thanks in Advance,
GEUAviator

 

[Be200pilot]

i think the only people who would have an advantage over you would be comair academy graduates because they are owned by comair and most of them get hired by comair. i know for a fact that the gulstream academy guys are getting interviews at a few hiring regionals, but they come out of the program with pt 121 beech 1900 time. both of these places cost a ton of money but seem to work. but i really do think you will do just fine when you are up to 1500 hrs and 250 multi. dont sweat it

 

[Publishers]

yes and no

The answer is both yes and no. It is now an accepted practice to have these relationships and right this minute they work. Still, even a Comair tries to get a cross section in their classes of the new graduates, mid time people, and even some with more experience. Still they will get the interview and have some advantage. What changes is the proportion that will come from outside these programs.

 

[flyboy]

Mesa Pilot Development guys will also get hired with 240 hours after they complete that program. However, MAPD is a bit different that the high priced schools. They at least come out of it with an associates degree. I currently work for mesa (ramp) and I've met flight crew members that were hired as low as 240 hours that came out of the program and the instructors are getting hired with 1000 and 100 after a year of service. I wish I'd known about MAPD when I graduated high school in 96'. I'd be a captain now enjoying life as an airline pilot. Instead, I'm instructing at a small part 61 flight school getting ready to hang it up due to financial problems.

 

[Deftone45075]

I hope they havn't gone so low as to hire guys with 300 hours now. I know most of these wonders get the bridge programs with about 600 or so hours. And that is still quite low to be flying an RJ.

I think applicants who have gained a bit more experience will have as good a chance as any ERAU miricale. I would only hope that regionals will prefer to have someone with more hours and especially prior experience in turbine equipment and or 135 experience.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

SkyWest won't hire anyone with such low time. They have minimums of 1000 total but now they are hiring people furloughed from United and Delta with much much more time. I imagine some regionals will hire someone with real low time but if I were a captain I wouldn't want a brand new FO to be flying with me in an RJ with only 300 hours total time. There is a lot to be said for experience. You can buy a few hundred hours of flight time but you can't buy experience in the cockpit.

 

[RUhiring?]

I'd be a captain now enjoying life as an airline pilot.......

How many regional captains have you seen on this board that could be described as "enjoying life?"

 

[Visceral]

I wouldn't go so far as to say the regional captain posters on this board represent the opinions of all regional captains.

Most people don't like their jobs, but I'd say I'd be happier as a regional capt than as an Initech employee.

 

[Cardinal]

Regional airline life beats the hell out of instructing or being a student, I can tell ya that. Of couse I hear you can make more selling magazine subscriptions than you ever could at Initrode.

 

[MetroSheriff]

I'm just a regional FO. It beats sitting in the left seat of a Metroliner hauling boxes for twice the $ and sure as heck beats actually working for a living.

I think a lot of the real hard core whiners have probably never actually had to work for a living. They spend a little too much time wishing their lives away. You need to take a little satisfaction out of what you do even if it is not the your dream job yet.

Remember, often the journey is it's own reward.

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD

Mesa Pilot Development guys will also get hired with 240 hours after they complete that program. However, MAPD is a bit different that the high priced schools. They at least come out of it with an associates degree. I currently work for mesa (ramp) and I've met flight crew members that were hired as low as 240 hours that came out of the program and the instructors are getting hired with 1000 and 100 after a year of service . . . .

They must have changed the program. It was 300 hours ten years ago. Oh, well . . .

But I agree with all of Flyboy's points about the hiring opportunities and program quality. Just two points to bear in mind: (1) MAPD students cannot utter a peep about the gripes they might have because they could lose their chances at "the interview," as legitimate as their gripes may be, and (2) Sometimes an ab initio program that does not offer a CFI program can be a bad choice during bad hiring times. You could finish MAPD, do fine in your interview, and be placed in a hiring pool. At that point you don't know when you'll be called to class, or if you'll be called at all (I don't know how long poolies have priority for class.). During that time, at low time, you should be flying and earning money, which having a CFI would enable.

As for me, I would have been happy beyond belief just to have been invited to class. Beech 1900 Captain would have been wonderful, and being a CRJ or ERJ Captain would have been the icing on the cake.

 

[generaltso]

I remember before 9/11 when kids were going to the regionals left and right, we were getting people coming out of ERAU going to the regionals who have never shot an approach in actual down to minimums. And there were lots of these guys.

How times have changed.

 

[TurboS7]

The instructing, flying cargo, flying poorly maintained airplanes, and having bad stuff happens to you pays off later in your life. You only get to have a fatal crash once, experience will save you. If the thrust had been reduced on the CLT B1900 crash just maybe she could have flown it out. You regional guys give a try in the sim and you will see what I am talking about.........coming from a stuctured learning situation doesn't give one the open mind needed for a real problem. Read the latest Flying article, the Alaska MD-83 that crashed. The captain was thrilled because they got the airplane flying again prior to impact, it was inverted but it was flying.... Those guys stayed with it all the way to the end.

 

[350DRIVER]

If and when there is another hiring boom for the regionals, will these 300 hour wonder pilots have an edge over someone like myself who may have tons of time but did not attend one of these schools?

I do not think the word "wonder" has anything to do with these pilots getting hired at such low time. They are trained the airline way from day 1(bottom line). I only wish I could go back and do it all over again, I surely would have went to the MAPD program since it is by far the best & quickest way to get to the right seat of a CRJ/ERJ at 250 hours or so... Total time has absolutely nothing to do with this since they are just as safe, good, confident, etc, etc, as someone with 1500TT or more- TT has nothing to do with it- I praise Mr. Castle and all involved at this program for continuing to show others in the industry that TT means relatively nothing when you are trained the airline way from day 1. I would share the flight deck with these MAPD grads any day of the week and have the utmost of confidence in each and every one of them. Statistics and facts do not lie.... These so called "wonder pilots" (as you put it ) also have one of the lowest washout rates in the 121 world... I hope they continue to prove others wrong in this industry...


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[CaptBuzzard]

Yeah, I remember when I had times like 600TT and 50ME when I was considered really low time, but others were getting hired with those numbers, and guys with 1500hrs or more were calling me low time. Now with more than 1600tt and 600ME, I am still getting called real low time, just by the 3000hr guys. Funny when things change. The way I look at it, I am low time and I know it. But at one time one would get hired at a regional with 900 hrs and then upgrade 10 months later with just over 1500 per the insurance requirements or ops specs. Now a 1500 hr pilot can't get a job, much less a 3000 hr pilot. Hopefully things can get better over the next few years, although I highly doubt that it will get back to the way things were in the late 90's. As far as 300 hour pilots still getting hired, more power to them. I will say this, I would never imagined getting hired with that low of time and expected myself to make it through. The ground school maybe, but the sim and aircraft training, no way.

 

[100LL... Again!]

Oh, to be trained the "Airline Way".

What a bunch of BS.

Let me translate this for you:

Since this pilot will have no real experience or well of skills to draw upon, we are going to drill the crap out of them on procedures. Then we are going to develop a very narrow set of tasks for them to master. Presto! Look - it flies like a real pilot! It parrots back all the proper answers! It wears a uniform!

Guess what folks - the training might look broad but it sure ain't deep. You guys are trainees in a pilot's uniform. Don't kid yourselves. Take the left seater away and you'd be lost.

A real FO hits the ground running and doesn't need to be baby-sat.

Accelerated programs leading directly to a regional are like teaching a 10 year old to act like a 40 year old. It may fool people sometime, but they don't have the real experience to pull it off. It is a disservice to these new pilots as well, since they are allowed to think that they really belong in that seat. It deprives them of the chance to learn how to fly as the PIC of any airplane. Go from being instructed in a seminole to being instructed in an RJ. Sounds like a trainee to me.

 

[350DRIVER]

You guys are trainees in a pilot's uniform. Don't kid yourselves. Take the left seater away and you'd be lost.

What a "comical" statement... Every one of those MAPD grads still has to pass Indoc/ground school/sim training/ checkride/ IOE/ etc... They are just as "qualified" if not more than guys coming off the streets with five times the amount of time they have. Who are you trying to fool.? They are def. put to the test prior to being line qualified and long before being able to put on that "pilot's uniform"- You cannot dispute that since they still have to pass the same training as anyone else ( pass being the key word)....


You may be "bitter" towards these guys but the bottom line is that you cannot "justify" why they are not "prepared" to fly the line when all is said and done since they still had to PASS ALL the stuff that Mr.2500TT had to do in ground school. You either have what it takes or not-


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0R let me guess "these guys don't have to do the same ground school/sim training/oral/flight check/IOE/etc since they are low timers"?

 

[Cardinal]

Every one of those MAPD grads still has to pass Indoc/ground school/sim training/ checkride/ IOE/ etc

Well duh. However those events do not make a person into Chuck Yeager, they do not bestow upon him a Distinguished Flying Cross. It simply means that the candidate was able to take 2 written tests, not breakdown in the face of stress, shoot 4 passable approaches in an airplane, and not really scare his IOE captain. Thats it. There are many shades of gray between "passing" and "great." I presume that the above posters would rather fly with somebody who is "great." I can hardly fault them.

The average time of newhires at my company is just about triple what it was pre 9/11. In discussion with several captains the sentiment is that the higher timers are generally less maintenance, less frightening, and more consistent during the early days. This isn't to say that the low time hires will grow to be any less of a pilot with time, it's just that there is a lot of learning that takes place in that extra 1000 hours. Do it in a skyhawk or do it with paying pax in the back, whatever.

 

[captainv]

in my class at Comair we had but one Academy grad, the rest were either airline veterans or military guys, with a freight dog and corporate guy thrown in.

our academy guy had 1500 TT, (was a CFI after graduation) had never flown anything bigger than a Seminole and had never flown in the Flight Levels. didn't have much IMC experience from flying in Florida his whole career.

... and he absolutely kicked all of our a$$es in ground school. this guy came in, studied hard, and knew his stuff backwards and forwards. he was light years ahead of us the whole time.

out on line, he's seeing stuff he's never seen before, high altitude flight, weather, etc., etc. but you know what? he's got at least a couple of years in the right seat to soak all that up before he upgrades. with his attitude and work ethic, i'm not worried. i'm sure we have our share of 300TT deadweights, but i haven't run across any...

 

[stillaboo]

If the thrust had been reduced on the CLT B1900 crash just maybe she could have flown it out. You regional guys give a try in the sim and you will see what I am talking about

Words cannot even describe how disapointed I was to read this. Capt. Leslie was a great pilot, and, if you read the CVR 'Turbo', you can see Capt. Leslie said (AND I QUOTE!) "Pull the power back." It is unacceptable for you to cite the flying skill of Capt. Leslie when trying to show the errors of low time pilots.

Capt. Leslie was a former CFI, not a fast track graduate, by the way.

As far as MAPD (and Commair) grads are concerned, let the results speak for themselves. They are prefered by most IOE captains at Mesa, and have lower washout rates than 135 drivers or CFI's in not only the 1900 (which they have time in before being hired) but also the Dash, ERJ, and CRJ. They prove themselves to their co-workers every day and are held to the same standards as their fellow pilots, if not higher ones. Isn't that enough?

Capt. Leslie's FO, Mr. Gibbs, was a MAPD grad. Let's blame it on him, huh?!

I'm sorry, but this one just really hit a nerve with me, considering the CVR and the likely cause of the accident, the improper adjustment of the turnbuckle on the elevator down cable which lead to less than full command authority. To read how desperately the crew tried to push nose down and then see the crash compared to an easy sim mistake that a low timer would make . . . it was just too much for me personally. Sorry.
-Boo!

 

[bobbysamd]

Ab initio-trained FOs on the line

Originally posted by captainv
out on line, he's seeing stuff he's never seen before, high altitude flight, weather, etc., etc. but you know what? he's got at least a couple of years in the right seat to soak all that up before he upgrades . . . .

That is really the point. Agreed, a 300-hour MAPD grad is well booked-learned and is thoroughly drilled in procedures. His/her opportunity to learn is indeed on the line. That's where he/she will soak up experience and real-world know-how.

Think about it a moment. The person is going on the line at 300 hours. Let's say that over the next year the FO flies his/her 1000 hours. Clearly, after a year that person has 1000 hours more experience and has had a chance to apply his/her MAPD training. You really learn when you can take your training and apply it to practical situations.

Which, to me, is a potential downside of going to an ab initio school during bad hiring times. Momentum builds. You are flying regularly during training and are absorbing new learning, you have attended and passed "the interview," but Mesa is not hiring. So, you become a poolie and might be inactive when you should be in class having your learning and procedures reinforced. Your skills were well-honed when you made it through the interview. Because you don't have enough experience, you can lose some of your proficiency and it could take a while before you get it back. This is especially true for new instrument pilots. A more experienced pilot is less likely to lose proficiency because of inactivity simply because he/she has been doing it long and has had more reps.

(I probably should watch out what I say. I might have nearly 4600 hours and have had abundant "reps" demonstrating maneuvers, but I have not flown an airplane in 9 1/2 years!)

If you go to a more standard 141 school, get your CFI, and can at least fly some, you can acquire experience and handle the controls enough to retain some measure of proficiency. Of course, a MAPD poolie could go get a CFI in order to find work. That person might feel resentful about having to do so after receiving all the Mesa hiring pablum. That would be understandable, but you have been warned.

Just some more $0.02 food for thought.

 

[surplus1]

i think the only people who would have an advantage over you would be comair academy graduates because they are owned by comair and most of them get hired by comair.

For the sake of clarification, I think there is a misconception here with respect to Comair. To the best of my knowledge, Comair has NEVER hired any 300 hour pilots from the "academy" or anywhere else.

The pilots that Comair hires out of the academy must first work for the "academy" as flight instructors for an entire year after which some, not all, of them will get a guaranteed interview (not a job) at Comair. Many never even get the interview. No one gets interviews at Comair by merely completing the ab-initio training, and not everyone gets the interview to become an academy instructor. Its very selective (though somewhat subjective).

By the time an "academy instructor" gets the airline interview, their total time includes the ab-initio training time plus the flight instructor time and generally meets or exceeds the posted hiring minimums of 1200/200. This was so before the current industry crisis and has not changed because of it. Comair has not had a "problem" recruiting qualified pilot applicants, including during the "hiring boom", and even during the time frame when there was a separate AQP at the academy that was a quasi-PFT program several years back and which never applied to the jet equipment.

In most cases, the pilots that complete the academy program and get interviews are better qualified (for the particular job) than a CFI from an FBO, because the entire program, including the year of instructing at the academy, is tailored to produce an entry-level Comair pilot. The pilots hired out of this program almost always do very well in the airlines' training program and subsequently on line. However, they are NOT 300-hour pilots.

It's not a "big deal" at all, but I did think it should be clarified. I know nothing about Mesa's program and do not mean to criticize it. However, the two "programs" appear to be quite different in final application. Comparing CMR and MES seems to be apples to oranges in many ways.

For example, there are no 1500 hour captains at Comair. The absolute minimum for upgrade is 3000 hours total, 1000 hours multi and 500 hours with the Company. While waivers are possible, they can't happen without the unions's endorsement and they don't. If you don't meet the minimums for some reason you are bypassed until you do - a relatively rare event. Also, the airline doesn't hire "street captains" and hasn't done so in the last 15 years. Our contract doesn't permit that.

 

[WrightAvia]

Good argument but...

I don't care what you guys come up with on this...I go on vacation in a couple of weeks and for a change I am flying on the airlines instead of renting an Aztec or Seneca. Had many choices available in brands...but good old NWA had some flights where I could get home and back, without using code sharing partners or contractors. That's the route I took and that's where I spent my money.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

I imagine many low time pilots are great pilots. Experience is highly valuable though. If I were an airline captain (or corporate captain) flying with a new FO I would like him to have seen more than once: icing, approaches to minimums, approaches and landing in rain and snow and fog, viscious crosswinds, experience in moderate or severe turbulence, actual missed approaches, making decisions like diverting or holding till the weather had improved, making decisions like climbing or descending due to headwinds/tailwinds or turbulence or terrain, making decisions about inoperative equipment, and most of all actually experiencing and responding to abnormal and emergency situations. If I were an airline captain I would prefer my FO gained this experience through flying professionally because then there is the added reality of creating revenue for your company and being on-time while being a safe pilot. All of these situations are great in the simulator or in an airplane in a training environment but real experience comes from acutally flying an airplane and actually having to make these decisions in the air. I realize that it isn't always possible for an airline new hire to have experienced all of these things but I find it highly unlikely that a 300-hour pilot has experienced many (or any) of these things.

 

[350DRIVER]

boo-
I agree, pretty sad he would make such an ignorant and senseless comment like that however it is usually the old bitter salts that are "fixated" on the TT and low experience philosophy. That is pretty much the bottom line, fortunately Mesa will continue to prove these guys wrong time after time.....


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[328dude]

I was shocked at that comment too.

Turbo, you usally have very well informed post's on here and enjoy most of them, but that one was uncalled for. That wasway out of line dude.

 

[bssthound]

According to captainv
... and he absolutely kicked all of our a$$es in ground school. this guy came in, studied hard, and knew his stuff backwards and forwards. he was light years ahead of us the whole time.

That's the bottom line. You'll have lowtimers come in determined to make the most of an opportunity and give it their all. Granted, there is experience to be gained but it's usually a pretty long wait in the right seat during which that "cup of knowledge" begins to fill up.


i'm sure we have our share of 300TT deadweights, but i haven't run across any...

On that note, I'm sure we've all seen our share of 3,000TT plus deadweights, haven't we?

 

[TurboS7]

To those that I offended I am sorry. I do not know any of the crew members involved in either of the accidents that I talked about. Neither have I done a comprehensive study of those accidents nor do I care to. So just for the learning process lets just say the accidents didn't happen and we are just thinking, what if ...........I do not have access to a B1900D sim, some of you guys do, all I was asking was on your next sim check give it a try, if it works it might save your life. Knowing what I know about very experienced pilots Captain Leslie would be smiling knowing that her misfortune just may save your life and those passengers flying with you.

 

[Typhoon1244]

My dad got hired by a major in 1966. He had about three hundred hours at the time. His training up until that time was, by today's standards, a little disorganized...a flight school here, a freelance CFI there, etc. An awful lot of guys with similar qualifications got hired at the same time. Most of them, like my father, flew safely and successfully for the next thirty-five-plus years.

My point is that "300-Hour Wonder Pilots" are not a new phenomenon in aviation. Remember, most of the worst accidents in airline history (the Everglades, Tenerife, the Delta '1011 in Dallas) revolved around crews with tremendous experience, not 300-hour wonders.

You have to look at (1) the quality of the individual, and (2) the quality of his/her training.

 

[TurboS7]

We have some of those "300 hour 1965 wonders" flying with us at the airline I am at now. I must say that they are the most professional and fantastic pilots that I have flown with.