Question About These 300 Hour New Hires

[bobbysamd]

Ab initio-trained FOs on the line

Originally posted by captainv
out on line, he's seeing stuff he's never seen before, high altitude flight, weather, etc., etc. but you know what? he's got at least a couple of years in the right seat to soak all that up before he upgrades . . . .

That is really the point. Agreed, a 300-hour MAPD grad is well booked-learned and is thoroughly drilled in procedures. His/her opportunity to learn is indeed on the line. That's where he/she will soak up experience and real-world know-how.

Think about it a moment. The person is going on the line at 300 hours. Let's say that over the next year the FO flies his/her 1000 hours. Clearly, after a year that person has 1000 hours more experience and has had a chance to apply his/her MAPD training. You really learn when you can take your training and apply it to practical situations.

Which, to me, is a potential downside of going to an ab initio school during bad hiring times. Momentum builds. You are flying regularly during training and are absorbing new learning, you have attended and passed "the interview," but Mesa is not hiring. So, you become a poolie and might be inactive when you should be in class having your learning and procedures reinforced. Your skills were well-honed when you made it through the interview. Because you don't have enough experience, you can lose some of your proficiency and it could take a while before you get it back. This is especially true for new instrument pilots. A more experienced pilot is less likely to lose proficiency because of inactivity simply because he/she has been doing it long and has had more reps.

(I probably should watch out what I say. I might have nearly 4600 hours and have had abundant "reps" demonstrating maneuvers, but I have not flown an airplane in 9 1/2 years!)

If you go to a more standard 141 school, get your CFI, and can at least fly some, you can acquire experience and handle the controls enough to retain some measure of proficiency. Of course, a MAPD poolie could go get a CFI in order to find work. That person might feel resentful about having to do so after receiving all the Mesa hiring pablum. That would be understandable, but you have been warned.

Just some more $0.02 food for thought.

 

[surplus1]

i think the only people who would have an advantage over you would be comair academy graduates because they are owned by comair and most of them get hired by comair.

For the sake of clarification, I think there is a misconception here with respect to Comair. To the best of my knowledge, Comair has NEVER hired any 300 hour pilots from the "academy" or anywhere else.

The pilots that Comair hires out of the academy must first work for the "academy" as flight instructors for an entire year after which some, not all, of them will get a guaranteed interview (not a job) at Comair. Many never even get the interview. No one gets interviews at Comair by merely completing the ab-initio training, and not everyone gets the interview to become an academy instructor. Its very selective (though somewhat subjective).

By the time an "academy instructor" gets the airline interview, their total time includes the ab-initio training time plus the flight instructor time and generally meets or exceeds the posted hiring minimums of 1200/200. This was so before the current industry crisis and has not changed because of it. Comair has not had a "problem" recruiting qualified pilot applicants, including during the "hiring boom", and even during the time frame when there was a separate AQP at the academy that was a quasi-PFT program several years back and which never applied to the jet equipment.

In most cases, the pilots that complete the academy program and get interviews are better qualified (for the particular job) than a CFI from an FBO, because the entire program, including the year of instructing at the academy, is tailored to produce an entry-level Comair pilot. The pilots hired out of this program almost always do very well in the airlines' training program and subsequently on line. However, they are NOT 300-hour pilots.

It's not a "big deal" at all, but I did think it should be clarified. I know nothing about Mesa's program and do not mean to criticize it. However, the two "programs" appear to be quite different in final application. Comparing CMR and MES seems to be apples to oranges in many ways.

For example, there are no 1500 hour captains at Comair. The absolute minimum for upgrade is 3000 hours total, 1000 hours multi and 500 hours with the Company. While waivers are possible, they can't happen without the unions's endorsement and they don't. If you don't meet the minimums for some reason you are bypassed until you do - a relatively rare event. Also, the airline doesn't hire "street captains" and hasn't done so in the last 15 years. Our contract doesn't permit that.

 

[WrightAvia]

Good argument but...

I don't care what you guys come up with on this...I go on vacation in a couple of weeks and for a change I am flying on the airlines instead of renting an Aztec or Seneca. Had many choices available in brands...but good old NWA had some flights where I could get home and back, without using code sharing partners or contractors. That's the route I took and that's where I spent my money.

 

[SkyWestCRJPilot]

I imagine many low time pilots are great pilots. Experience is highly valuable though. If I were an airline captain (or corporate captain) flying with a new FO I would like him to have seen more than once: icing, approaches to minimums, approaches and landing in rain and snow and fog, viscious crosswinds, experience in moderate or severe turbulence, actual missed approaches, making decisions like diverting or holding till the weather had improved, making decisions like climbing or descending due to headwinds/tailwinds or turbulence or terrain, making decisions about inoperative equipment, and most of all actually experiencing and responding to abnormal and emergency situations. If I were an airline captain I would prefer my FO gained this experience through flying professionally because then there is the added reality of creating revenue for your company and being on-time while being a safe pilot. All of these situations are great in the simulator or in an airplane in a training environment but real experience comes from acutally flying an airplane and actually having to make these decisions in the air. I realize that it isn't always possible for an airline new hire to have experienced all of these things but I find it highly unlikely that a 300-hour pilot has experienced many (or any) of these things.

 

[350DRIVER]

boo-
I agree, pretty sad he would make such an ignorant and senseless comment like that however it is usually the old bitter salts that are "fixated" on the TT and low experience philosophy. That is pretty much the bottom line, fortunately Mesa will continue to prove these guys wrong time after time.....


3 5 0

 

[328dude]

I was shocked at that comment too.

Turbo, you usally have very well informed post's on here and enjoy most of them, but that one was uncalled for. That wasway out of line dude.

 

[bssthound]

According to captainv
... and he absolutely kicked all of our a$$es in ground school. this guy came in, studied hard, and knew his stuff backwards and forwards. he was light years ahead of us the whole time.

That's the bottom line. You'll have lowtimers come in determined to make the most of an opportunity and give it their all. Granted, there is experience to be gained but it's usually a pretty long wait in the right seat during which that "cup of knowledge" begins to fill up.


i'm sure we have our share of 300TT deadweights, but i haven't run across any...

On that note, I'm sure we've all seen our share of 3,000TT plus deadweights, haven't we?

 

[TurboS7]

To those that I offended I am sorry. I do not know any of the crew members involved in either of the accidents that I talked about. Neither have I done a comprehensive study of those accidents nor do I care to. So just for the learning process lets just say the accidents didn't happen and we are just thinking, what if ...........I do not have access to a B1900D sim, some of you guys do, all I was asking was on your next sim check give it a try, if it works it might save your life. Knowing what I know about very experienced pilots Captain Leslie would be smiling knowing that her misfortune just may save your life and those passengers flying with you.

 

[Typhoon1244]

My dad got hired by a major in 1966. He had about three hundred hours at the time. His training up until that time was, by today's standards, a little disorganized...a flight school here, a freelance CFI there, etc. An awful lot of guys with similar qualifications got hired at the same time. Most of them, like my father, flew safely and successfully for the next thirty-five-plus years.

My point is that "300-Hour Wonder Pilots" are not a new phenomenon in aviation. Remember, most of the worst accidents in airline history (the Everglades, Tenerife, the Delta '1011 in Dallas) revolved around crews with tremendous experience, not 300-hour wonders.

You have to look at (1) the quality of the individual, and (2) the quality of his/her training.

 

[TurboS7]

We have some of those "300 hour 1965 wonders" flying with us at the airline I am at now. I must say that they are the most professional and fantastic pilots that I have flown with.

 

[328dude]

FlyChicago, nice post.

What everyone is forgetting is that we all in our career's had that 300 hours. Rather than bashing someone that is straight out of school for trying to gain experince, why not give him some of your experince so he can carry it on after you sitting on a retirement check.

Aviation is a never ending learning experince, just because you have 5000 hours, there's always the 10,000 hour pilot that has more.

Where does it all end? This topic is not about experince, it's about EGO's!!!!!

Peace

 

[MetroSheriff]

You have to look at (1) the quality of the individual, and (2) the quality of his/her training.

Not to mention a little bit of luck.


Inflight fires, communication foul-ups, and windshear could happen to any of us.

 

[flyboy]

Typhoon,

I've been scrolling this board to the last post just to make sure that no one else had posted what I wanted to say. You said it 2 posts ago. I have been reading flying magazine for almost 10 years now and in that time, I've read many articles about guys that got jobs with MAJOR airlines, NOT regionals, at 300 hours flying dc9s and 737s. These are those enviable 20,000 hour 777 captains many of the FOs on this board are flying with now. I think they'd all be offended by these comments.
Let me say first that I am an instructor trying to build time to get a real flying job one day. However, I side with those who are doing what it takes to get the job. This is a dog eat dog world and in any other proffesion, you try to get a leg up on others trying to get the same job you are getting. I feel that these schools like TAB express, the former ATA, Regional Airline Academy, etc. are not reliable as airline career builders. They will take your $60k and you may or may not get a job. However, I feel that the Mesa program is legit and have heard zero complaints from any graduate or instructor. I'm not saying that there are unsatisfied MAPD graduates out there, just that I've met many of them and all have been pleased. I don't know about you but I spent around 35k getting my ratings and paying for timebuilding flights under part 61 regs. Now I'm flying a 172 or 182 around the pattern with private students and the occasional instrument or commercial student. I haven't flown a multi in over a year b/c there are no planes for rent in the city where I live. I try to get rides with those who have multi's but they never seem to call me back. I have exhausted all options I can think of and yet most of the flights I get come from instructing these simple aircraft. If I ever get enough flight time to move on, what about my flying makes me prepared to fly a turboprop or a regional jet? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. I think that schools like MAPD are the wave of the future and CFI's like me have real competition for those jobs. I don't resent those people. They did what they had to do and didn't spend much more than I did.

I think that most people who are offended by these pilots are those who are jealous that 300 hour pilots are getting jobs and they aren't.

 

[de727ups]

MAPD

How would you guys have felt about the MAPD scheme if JO starting telling the grauates to take a job at Freedom or take a hike? I'd guess that most who drop the money on a program like that would take the job....what else are they gonna do with 300 total time and no CFI? Not like you have a lot of options outside of Mesa.

I see the MAPD as another revenue source for JO. Hope those guys are getting their monies worth for their training...

Sign me up as an "old bittered salt" or "jealous of a 300 hour pilot"....I think it's a bad idea putting 300 hour guys in the right seat of a passenger airline jet.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: MAPD

I think it's a bad idea putting 300 hour guys in the right seat of a passenger airline jet.

How many hours does the average fighter pilot (with no prior civilian flying experience) have when he climbs by himself into a jet with a 20mm cannon and four heat-seeking missiles for the first time, three hundred? Two hundred? Less?

That 1965-66 hiring boom I was talking about...back then there were guys getting hired at major airlines with zero hours. Does that make you feel better?

Again, it's the quality of the individual and their training that are important. (...for a new hire first officer, that is. I wouldn't put a three hundred hour pilot in the left seat of an airliner!) Most airline IP's I've known actually prefer the low-time guys...fewer bad habits to unlearn, easier absorption of airline procedures and techniques.

Sign me up as a "old bittered salt..."

Okay, we will. Must be a generational thing...twenty-five year old F/O's back then were smarter than twenty-five year old F/O's today, I guess.

 

[bssthound]

How many hours does the average fighter pilot (with no prior civilian flying experience) have when he climbs by himself into a jet with a 20mm cannon and four heat-seeking missiles for the first time, three hundred? Two hundred? Less?

Let's not mix apples and oranges. The average fighter pilot has been under a microscope while undergoing the most rigorous flight training in the world. He or she has performed to enormously high standards in a syllabus that affords very little extra training. You get it right the first or second time. The quality of his 200 or so hours at UPT and time at whatever the AT-38 phase is called these days before coming to the FTU is incomporable to anything else. The learning never stops. There are several folks on the military board who can outline this process a lot better than I can.

 

[Typhoon1244]

The average fighter pilot has been under a microscope while undergoing the most rigorous flight training in the world. He or she has performed to enormously high standards in a syllabus that affords very little extra training. You get it right the first or second time. The quality of his 200 or so hours at UPT and time at whatever the AT-38 phase is called these days before coming to the FTU is incomporable to anything else. The learning never stops.

This assumes that AF flight training is superior to all other flight training. I agree that it's different, but better? No, I'm not comfortable with a blanket statement like that.

Besides, I've talked to far too many former AF and Navy guys about people who have become fighter and attack pilots in spite of the services' rigorous screening processes!

 

[bobbysamd]

Mesa cash cow(s)

I see the MAPD as another revenue source for JO . . . .

Of course it is. MAPD predates Frank O (intended) by several years. It originated during the Larry Risley days. Risley knew how to make money. He saw MAPD as a way of getting trained, indoctrinated pilots whom he could program to his way of "thinking" while keeping down his training costs.

In those days Mesa owned several businesses. The technically-correct name for MAPD was San Juan Pilot Training, and it was one of those business. Risley also owned Four Corners Aviation, which was the FBO that was adjacent to the MAPD facility in the terminal. Risley also owned an aircraft maintenance business.

Another of Mesa's hustles was its ATP program. ATP applicants were invited to take the rating at MAPD. They were given something like two Baron flights to prepare, for which they paid, and would take the practical with a Mesa check airman/DE. Only those who passed the first time got Mesa interviews. Some passed the first time . . . . and plenty failed . . . if you catch my drift. As they say at the State Fair, "you pays your money, you takes your chances."

How would you guys have felt about the MAPD scheme if JO starting telling the grauates to take a job at Freedom or take a hike? I'd guess that most who drop the money on a program like that would take the job....what else are they gonna do with 300 total time and no CFI? Not like you have a lot of options outside of Mesa.

That's a very real consideration and another potential downside in these times. Wasn't it earlier this year during the Freedom startup that MAPD grads were being pushed in that direction? I know they were given the choice of being hired now at Freedom or waiting for regular Mesa, which was not hiring. I guess that is a now a non-issue, with Freedom being included in the new union contract. But the pressures for MAPD grads back then to scab were obvious - indeed an offer that couldn't be refused. I would have hated to be a MAPD grad who faced a decision that could harm his/her career before it begins.

Sign me up as an "old bittered salt" or "jealous of a 300 hour pilot"....I think it's a bad idea putting 300 hour guys in the right seat of a passenger airline jet.

Perhaps. Originally, MAPD people went into the right seat of Beech 1900s. All their training, in A36 Bonanzas and B58 Barons, led logically to and facilitated that objective. It wasn't an altogether difficult transition to the 1900 from the Baron. Students received ten hours of 1900 time, and, ten years ago, a 135 letter as well. The program was organized and logical - another reason why I like it.

But, now, I find the following to be very odd. I interviewed at Mesa in 1990 with Mesa's Mr. Beech 1900, Grady Reed. At that time RJs were on the drawing boards and were featured in professional pilot magazines. When Reed invited me to ask questions, I asked if Mesa planned to acquire RJs. He said "no" and he was clearly annoyed with my question. I was not hired. Given that RJs were industry news and the wave of the future I do not feel that I asked an inappropriate question. Now look what Mesa is flying - and who is flying them.

 

[bssthound]

Besides, I've talked to far too many former AF and Navy guys about people who have become fighter and attack pilots in spite of the services' rigorous screening processes!

Absolutely. No system is foolproof. But the person like that you hear about is an anomaly. The one guy in the squadron who somehow ended up where he shouldn't be. Not only that, he's probably a capable pilot as far as the entry level skills, i.e. taking off, landing, etc., but when your business is kill or be killed the level of competition is way up there. I saw that in the Phantom. We had an enormous amount of talent but there were one or two who were out of their league.

Having said that I will end by saying that by far the lion's share of folks flying the fast movers are highly motivated, highly trainable, topnotch pilots. Period.

BTW, I'm certain you and I both know people who shouldn't be at ASA despite our company's rigorous screening processes!

 

[Publishers]

One size

This is not a one size fits all issue and if you think about it, you would agree.

You can get a thousand hours and not know much at all. You can get the majority of that time flying Barons on check runs in the midwest in winter at night and be pretty efficient and sharp.

I have had the opportunity to fly a bunch of pistons and jets and never knew much about the systems and emergency procedures at all. Granted, I was not trying to be a commercial pilot for hire so at the time it may not have been as important.

The point is that these concentrated programs at just that, concentrated and intense. There is little flying around at cruise building time. You learn the systems of a specific aircraft and away you go. The last time I looked, you have to pass the same level of testing and checks that the guy with 5000 hours in your class does.

Let's face it, for some that have 10 years experience, it was one years experience repeated over and over for 10 years.

There was a recent case I am familiar with where a commercial furloughed pilot was terminated from a corporate job. In talking with their boss, what I heard was that the guy had forgotton how to do everything. He had a hard time having to do his own weather and flight plans, checking fuelings, briefing passengers, etc. He had experience but had forgot how to deal with everyday flying