Question about the "Capt. wants to descend below mins" interview question

[QuasarZ]

I am curious about how to answer this question. I know you first want to call out minimums, and then do it again more forcefully and maybe nudge him to make sure he is awake/alive, and then call missed appraoch. This is where my question is. At this point if he still wants to go down-
Do you try to take controls, or let him fly it down with the guidance of the instruments? I don't think it would be to safe to fight for the controls so close to the ground. Wouldn't it be safer to let him fly it down, and hope you break out, rather than fight it and casue more problems that close to the ground?

Any help is appreciated. Getting nervous about my interview!

 

[GearUpLightsIn]

Hope he makes a good landing and then let him explain why you called missed and landed anyway.

 

[QuasarZ]

so you say to let them fly it down, and not try and take controls?

 

[Papps]

Call the tower and tell them your going missed. edit forget it someone else beat me to it. I wouldn't grab at the controls that low to the ground.

 

[norskman2]

Hope he makes a good landing and then let him explain why you called missed and landed anyway.

Correct answer.

Neverneverneverever fight for the controls unless you determine the captain is physically incapacitated (seizure, heart attack). Call missed to the tower. Call missed to the captain. Use your CRM techniques. Call missed to the captain a second time in a louder voice using his name, "Captain XXX, we are below minimums. Missed Approach!" If it appears he is adequately controlling the aircraft (see heart attack above), let him complete the landing. Call Chief Pilot.

 

[J32driver]

Do nothing and you wind up like the Chautauqua 170 crew that slid off the end of the runway at Cleveland.

If the Captain does not respond, you have no choice but to assume he is incapacitated in some way. You MUST take control of the aircraft and execute the missed.

If the Captain responds... and says he is intentionally going below minimums. Easiest way to force a go around without wrestling for the controls at 200 feet... lean over and suck up the gear.

 

[siucavflight]

DO NOT GRAB AT THE CONTOLS, like has been stated earlier, call tower and tell them that you are going missed. If he then lands it is his problem.
DO NOT BRING UP THE GEAR.

 

[Boris Badenov]

interview question:

"Minimums. MINIMUMS! CAPTAIN, DO YOU REQUIRE ASSISTANCE? TOWER, XYZ123 EXECUTING MISSED APPROACH PROCEDURE."

real life:

"Minimums. MINIMUMS! CAPTAIN...nice landing."

 

[Starscream]

If the Captain does not respond, you have no choice but to assume he is incapacitated in some way. You MUST take control of the aircraft and execute the missed.

Bingo.

The main point here is, I doubt any interviewer will want to hear an answer along the lines of let the captain continue and hope for the best. Scream in a very commanding tone "MINIMUMS/MISSED APPROACH!" at least twice -- at the very least. In real life, you'll be covered by getting that on the CVR, assuming you survie.

You don't need to fight for control. Shove the power full forward. She'll climb.

When the captain chews you out, tell him you assumed incapacitation (if he didn't respond at all) and if it was a clear and blatant defiance of FARs, tell him (assertively) that if he's not gonna try to pull some dangerous stunt like that again, forget the chief pilot/pro standards, you're going straight to the FAA.

And I agree with siucavflight. While bringing the gear up may seem like a good idea, this is NOT something you want to do unless you have a positive rate of climb.


I don't think an interviewer has ever pulled this angle, but, yes, no matter the weather, in real life the only time I'd say you'd go ahead with a landing below mins is cabin fire/smoke or you're fuel supply is below, say, 15 minutes. Maybe also an electrical emergency that has you down to a few minutes of battery life.

 

[AvroJockey]

Ask the interviewer "Why the hell do you employ Captains that don't follow SOPs?"

Seriously though...most (if not all) airlines follow the 'Two Communication Rule.' You must assume incapacitation physically or mentally, and take control of the aircraft.

"... lean over and suck up the gear"

I wouldn't want to try this, especially Cat II/III. (You will definitely touch down on a Cat III go-around, if take control after two failed communications.)

 

[EMB170Pilot]

Do nothing and you wind up like the Chautauqua 170 crew that slid off the end of the runway at Cleveland.

Chq doesn't have 170s.

captain said go around twice to the FO and he still said I got it I got it. landed long, ran off the runway.

make sure you say over the radio, Tower, <callsign> going missed!

now you are committed.

Good Luck, you'll do fine.

oh and in the interview, if you get asked the captain has alcohol on his/her breathe, the answer is you would call the chief pilot. good luck

 

[QuasarZ]

Thanks for all the responses... There is a mix between take the controls and let him land. Hopefully the interviewer won't go that far in the scenario!

 

[siucavflight]

Do not tell him you would take the controls, the interviewer would rather hear you say that you would allow the aircraft to land rather then fight for control 200 feet above the ground.

 

[Papps]

don't take the controls, your will be fighting the controls below a couple hundred feet AGL. Thats more dangerous than landing below mins. call the missed right after you call "minimums". He/she will go missed.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

Announce XYZ123 going missed

If Cpt continues select TOGA on throttle quad for him and ask if he/she wants go around power to be set.

Never grab the yoke

 

[siucavflight]

I would not even select the TOGA buttons, if he is the PF then you should not be touching those buttons. Fighting over control at all that low to the ground can be deadly.

 

[QuasarZ]

I would not even select the TOGA buttons, if he is the PF then you should not be touching those buttons. Fighting over control at all that low to the ground can be deadly.

This is what I was leaning towards, but with a lot of people saying to take the controls I started to second guess my answer

 

[norskman2]

Having been in a cockpit twice where the other pilot has frozen up, never assume that they have control over the aircraft and that a normal landing will be the result.

T-Gates, what did you do?

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

I can't believe what I'm reading.

Don't grab the controls = I'm gonna watch this guy drive us into the dirt.

Call missed approach on the radio = I'm playing with the radio, (and watching this guy drive us into the dirt).

Don't suck up the gear = No $#!+, if you're not positive rate, don't pull up the shock absorbers.

On a CATIII, you can barely get one call in and you'll still likely skip off the runway (or taxiway, or dirt, or the top of that former plane).

Do your job and fly the plane. If he checked out, you take over. That's what the calls are there for. That's what you are there for.

 

[landlover]

to all the people that claim declaring a missed over the radio would cause said pilot to go around, what would you do at an uncontroled field?

 

[QuasarZ]

I can't believe what I'm reading.

Don't grab the controls = I'm gonna watch this guy drive us into the dirt.

Call missed approach on the radio = I'm playing with the radio, (and watching this guy drive us into the dirt).

Don't suck up the gear = No $#!+, if you're not positive rate, don't pull up the shock absorbers.

On a CATIII, you can barely get one call in and you'll still likely skip off the runway (or taxiway, or dirt, or the top of that former plane).

Do your job and fly the plane. If he checked out, you take over. That's what the calls are there for. That's what you are there for.

So you agree to the philosophy to wrestle for the controls 100-200ft above the runway? Do you think this is safer than the capt flying the glideslope down? There are so many people saying to take controls and so many saying not to... what is it?

 

[IdRtherBsailing]

No one wants to hear someone is going to fight over the controls at 200ft or less. Most FOM's, GOM's clearly state the FO will Offer his advice if he feels the A/C is being handled improperly. The capt may disregard as that is his command authority. Call the chief when you land. Chances are you will break out and land. I guess if you feel your going to die, go with your gut, but a power struggle is far more dangerous than landing below mins.

 

[Snapshot]

I'm with Crunk. I can't imagine an interviewer that wants to hear that you've identified a situation where the Captain may be incapacitated 15 seconds from turning the plane into a crater and you say you'd do nothing about it.
Every place I've ever worked, they trained this exact situation in the sim. If I had let the PF "land" it would've been a pink slip.

The answer to most any interview question: What is the safest course of action?

Good luck!

 

[QuasarZ]

I'm with Crunk. I can't imagine an interviewer that wants to hear that you've identified a situation where the Captain may be incapacitated 15 seconds from turning the plane into a crater and you say you'd do nothing about it.
Every place I've ever worked, they trained this exact situation in the sim. If I had let the PF "land" it would've been a pink slip.

The answer to most any interview question: What is the safest course of action?

Good luck!

So the safest course of action is you take control? I am stuck between both answers becasue there are a lot of people that say either one. I hope the interviewer won't take it this far, and will leave it when I say called missed.

 

[Snapshot]

Like I said, I've seen a lot of training programs and every single one trained to take the controls and go around.

If they are not responding to callouts, you have to assume they are incapacitated. Non responsive is the definition of incapacitation.

There is a reason there are two pilots instead of one.

Always go with what is the safest course of action. What you do if your family was in the back?
If you take the plane and go around, everybody lives, every time. If you allow the plane to hit the ground with nobody driving, everybody dies.

 

[WWEfan]

Its a crap shoot. One interviewer might want you to take the controls, the other might expect you to let the captain land. You got a 50/50 shot. Good luck.

 

[Papps]

Don't fight a captain for the controls. If he is slumped over and dead then assume control of the aircraft. If you say something to him and he is unresponsive then you can assume he's dead or sleeping. If you call minimums and he gives you a roger and ducks below mins don't get in a yoke wrestling match with him. You will be pulling and he will be pushing and one of you will eventually let go.

I had a brand new F/O with less then a thousand hours try and grab the controls on me, because he had never seen anyone kick out alot of crab in a big crosswind just before touching down.

In his last plane (c-172) you drop one wing 15 miles out on final to correct for a crosswind. But i didn't feel like dragging a wing across the runway.

He very nearly caused us some big problems about 10 feet from the ground. Don't wrestle for controls.

 

[NEDude]

There is no back and white answer to this. Too many variables.

If I am landing in a place like Kansas, where there are no mountains nearby, the captain has the GS and LCO pegged, and he responds that he is continuing when you call minimums, my response will be a lot different than if I am landing in a place surrounded my mountains, the GS and LOC are at 3/4 deflection and there is no response from the captain at the minimums call.

 

[inthegoo]

No Good Answer

 

[8HourPilot]

You sure you got your story right? You don't even have the airline right.

Do nothing and you wind up like the Chautauqua 170 crew that slid off the end of the runway at Cleveland.

If the Captain does not respond, you have no choice but to assume he is incapacitated in some way. You MUST take control of the aircraft and execute the missed.

If the Captain responds... and says he is intentionally going below minimums. Easiest way to force a go around without wrestling for the controls at 200 feet... lean over and suck up the gear.