Question about the "Capt. wants to descend below mins" interview question

[Vne]

Do your job and fly the plane. If he checked out, you take over. That's what the calls are there for. That's what you are there for.

Thats what the company EXPECTS you to do......period every thing else is cowboy crap

 

[Papps]

Easiest way to force a go around without wrestling for the controls at 200 feet... lean over and suck up the gear.

I don't think i would do that.

 

[temcgrew]

Typical response from anyone who is gona go below minimums and land would be "Approach lights in sight" followed by "runway in sight" If you are gona shout "go-around" just to be on the CVR don't you think the captain is smart enough to counter you?

 

[CFI2766]

I can't find the specific wording at the moment, but I recall that there is verbiage in my company's FOM that states the FO is to follow the command of the Captain, even if the FO believes the command is contrary to a company procedure or FAA reg. Then, after the fact, the FO is to report to the Chief Pilot. On nearly every aspect of operating that particular flight, I will defer to the judgment of El Guapo.

However, there is also much more directive wording in the FOM that directs the FO to assume command if the captain is unavailable or unable to do so. Frankly, FVCK this bit about two different answers, one for the interview and one for line flying. If my captain is not responding to my calls to go around, I will assume that he/she is incapacitated and I will take the controls, especially if it is the last landing of a four day, twenty-two leg trip. I will not watch him create a smoking hole 1000' feet down the runway where my remains will be found.

Honestly, there's just as much chance of me doing something unintentionally stoopid and dangerous as there is of a captain doing something intentionally dangerous. At the moment, 99% of the captains I fly with on the ATR wouldn't put me in this situation. There is one guy, however....

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Quasar,

I think there are two typical interview questions that we are combining/confusing.

Scenario 1:

During the approach brief: It's 2sm 100 ovc, the Capt. plans on ducking down below the DA(H) to see if you can break out. What do you do?

Scenario 2:

You're on approach and at minimums, the Capt. doesn't respond to your calls. What do you do?

In both cases, don't do this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnrTq9Y-uJY

During a brief, the Capt. is not incapacitated. Tell him that goes against regs and policies and that he should not continue past the MAP.

At the MAP, if the Capt is incacitated, you take over.

And if the pilot says, "Go around is not an option!" then you do like John Wayne in the video!

 

[FmrFreightDog]

Easiest way to force a go around without wrestling for the controls at 200 feet... lean over and suck up the gear.

Sounds like a good way to force a gear up landing to me. As a matter of fact, I dare say that's one of the stupidest ideas I've ever heard.

 

[IdRtherBsailing]

Just call Cheryl Cage and be done with it.

 

[siucavflight]

DO NOT REACH OVER AND BRING UP THE GEAR!!!
Although I am sure that J32 was joking.

 

[PCL_128]

If the Captain responds... and says he is intentionally going below minimums. Easiest way to force a go around without wrestling for the controls at 200 feet... lean over and suck up the gear.

Worst. Advice. Ever.

The problem here is that guys are assuming one extreme or the other: let him go and he flies it into the ground, or argue and fight to the death for control of the airplane. We all know that that's not what would happen here. If you call "my controls" and start to execute a go-around, the Captain isn't going to "fight" you for the controls. He may be extremely pissed and start screaming at you, but he's not going to try to wrestle you for the controls at 200 ft. I can't imagine an interviewer giving you a hypothetical that would go that far anyway. If you tell the interviewer that you would assume the Captain is incapacitated and execute a go-around, then that will be the end of the question. The interviewer isn't going to push it over and over again with more "but what if _____ happens next" questions. They just want to hear that you'd do the safe thing and go around.

 

[Snapshot]

If the Captain is not incapacitated and is willingly descending below DH, still the same answer. I wouldn't tell the interviewer that I'm going to sit there and let someone operate their airplane illegally and unsafely. Letting a Captain bully you into doing something you know is illegal and unsafe makes you a punk. That Video above illustrates it perfectly.

This question comes in several forms: The captain wants to drink inside the 8 hours, the captain wants to take off with the Nav light broken, the captain wants to fly into severe icing....... The list goes on. They will paint a scenario involving all sorts of variables, what-ifs, pressure, time constraints, and factors to try and influence your decision. They will paint a picture that makes the situation seem like a complicated grey area. The question they are really asking in all of these scenarios is:"Are you going to knowingly break an FAR (or allow one to be broken) in a non emergency situation?" When you peel away all the B.S. it is a very black and white question.

 

[Flyer1015]

You guys are all wrong!

I am TRULY shocked NO ONE got the correct answer:

The best answer is to bitch slap the captain if he goes below minimums, put on your Riddle baseball cap, and execute a missed, therefore saving the day like Tom Cruise in Top Gun. Oh, and make sure your gel spiked hair is well frosted before trying any of this.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

You guys are all wrong!

I am TRULY shocked NO ONE got the correct answer:

The best answer is to bitch slap the captain if he goes below minimums, put on your Riddle baseball cap, and execute a missed, therefore saving the day like Tom Cruise in Top Gun. Oh, and make sure your gel spiked hair is well frosted before trying any of this.

...left turn Clyde.

 

[JPAustin]

There really is no definitive "wrong" answer so long as your answer isn't off the wall stupid (i.e. grab the controls right away, do nothing and let him land because you know he'll make it anyway, etc.).

A question like this probably has two interviewers in the room and one will play good cop, the other bad cop. Either way you're wrong, so the best answer is to have the least wrong answer. Just make sure you throw the standards in there, i.e. two communication rule, look for incapacitation, strongly urge the captain if he responds to you to go around, yada yada... So long as they see as you get the idea of good CRM, you've passed. Also, it might not be a bad idea to add the caveat that a captain that would so blatantly go below minimums probably showed non-standard habits to begin with and you would have talked to him about it well before any of the go below minimums stuff happenned.

 

[Papps]

In both cases, it was not an arrival at mins on an approach, but rather on a visual approach, and one on a circling approach, in both cases being way out of stabilized approach criteria.

After multiple verbal warnings that we were unstablilized and not configured properly, recieving no response, I stated "My flight controls" very loudly and began a go around. In both cases, both pilots gave up the controls freely, I've never had to "wrestle" for the controls.

In one case, the other pilot was so frozen up that they didn't respond to me at all and let thier hands drop off the yoke into thier lap and looked down at the floor. I had to do the entire go-around off a circling approach in IMC by myself until they snapped out of it.

One of the most frightening moments of my career.

You're my hero.

 

[JPAustin]

You're my hero.

Ferris Bueller you're my hero...

 

[Papps]

well said

 

[Future Furlough]

Do nothing and you wind up like the Chautauqua 170 crew that slid off the end of the runway at Cleveland.

If the Captain does not respond, you have no choice but to assume he is incapacitated in some way. You MUST take control of the aircraft and execute the missed.

If the Captain responds... and says he is intentionally going below minimums. Easiest way to force a go around without wrestling for the controls at 200 feet... lean over and suck up the gear.

Funny, my CFM specifically states an altitude loss of up to 75 feet can be expected on a go-around. Forcing a missed or sucking up the gear that close to the ground is recipe for disaster. Help the captain find the runway and hope for the best.(This is the real life answer). The correct answer is the response that has the least amount of risk for the situation.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

"Pilot Incapacitaion" does not always mean slummed over the controls not breathing, becoming rapidly dead. There are many other forms incapacitation can take.

A pilot is incapacitated anytime an event or situation causes enough distraction to compromise his/her situational awareness, inhibits his/her judgement, allows risk taking behavior or compromises the ability to physically manuever the airplane.

My point is that pilot incapacitation can be very subtle, and I think it is important to convey in any interview that you are always including the other pilot in your "scan."

If I am flying with someone who ignores an obvious go-around situation, I assume incapacitation and fly the airplane myself. Period. No other answer is acceptable under any circumstance.

 

[Spicepilots]

If the Captain is not incapacitated and is willingly descending below DH, still the same answer. I wouldn't tell the interviewer that I'm going to sit there and let someone operate their airplane illegally and unsafely. Letting a Captain bully you into doing something you know is illegal and unsafe makes you a punk. That Video above illustrates it perfectly.

This question comes in several forms: The captain wants to drink inside the 8 hours, the captain wants to take off with the Nav light broken, the captain wants to fly into severe icing....... The list goes on. They will paint a scenario involving all sorts of variables, what-ifs, pressure, time constraints, and factors to try and influence your decision. They will paint a picture that makes the situation seem like a complicated grey area. The question they are really asking in all of these scenarios is:"Are you going to knowingly break an FAR (or allow one to be broken) in a non emergency situation?" When you peel away all the B.S. it is a very black and white question.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner here. Regardless of what "we'll write that up when we get back to ___" minutae we let our captains get away with on line, airlines want to hire good pilots who will become good captains. (even if right now some places are settling for the "can you fog a mirror" test.) Your responsibility as a crew member is to your crew, your passengers, and your airline. If your captain is going to do something illegal and potentially deadly, who else is going to be there to stop it??

The problem with this and similar questions is that they can bend it and adjust it. You may give the correct answer initially, and they can counter with one "what if" after another. Don't be misled, it could very well be a test to see how you handle the stress, and if you break down in frustration here. Not fair, I know, but it happens at every airline, every day in interviews. No, you don't want an honest to dog fight for the controls at 200' AGL, but there is a wide spectrum of ways this scenario can play out between fisticuffs and staring blankly ahead praying they see the runway before you impact it. This is your chance to articulate to your interviewer that you are somewhere between an agressive punk and a wet blanket.

P.S. The reality of the situation is that, on an ILS at 145 IAS, you don't have time for repeated callouts to the pf, then calls to the tower, then a grab for the controls.

 

[atlcrjdriver]

To add to the controversy, I have heard of captains that are so focused on landing the a/c that they block out everything that is going on around them and zone in on the PFD. The FO and a/c call out are literally ignored and the cpt simply drives on hoping that things will work out his way. He is not incapacitated simply "in the zone".
The FO that told me this actually happened to (luckily during a LOFT) had to push TOGA to force a go around and get his attention when the command bars went nose up and the A/P kicked off.

 

[Spicepilots]

Plus, the flaw in the "express your feelings, let him land, call the chief pilot" logic is that it assumes that the end result of the captain's deviation is a normal landing. I can think of some very good reasons why I want the landing environment in sight before descending below mins... an aircraft or vehicle inadvertantly on the runway, an obstacle between me and the runway on a non-prec. Don't just assume that if you let the captain continue you'd get the chance to complain to your chief.

 

[Striptyler]

Wow...
Ah, done lots of interviewing, new to Fltinfo

So many miss the whole point of the question. Pick your answer and stick to it, we want to see confident decessoin making, the rest you'll get trained on. Don't cause conflict, fighting for the controls, is the LAST thing an interview CA wants to hear. If the 350hr wonder sitting next to me ever grabs the controls, i'd prob. shoot him.

The CA signed for the plane. Most FOPMs, state, that during flight, the CA has full command authority over the AC, and it's crew without limitation.

Pick an answer and stick to it.

Most common answer i recieve, is; Would call missed, advise ATC of missed and start to set missed up, (APA etc.) While advising CA of situation. Fighting over controls? What if you accidentaly unplugged your headset? he might be responding, calling lights in sight, and have no clue why you'r suddelny on the yoke.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

The CA signed for the plane. Most FOPMs, state, that during flight, the CA has full command authority over the AC, and it's crew without limitation.

Ah, the Nuremburg Defense. Good choice.

I vas only following orders! Mein Kapitan told me not to follow Das Regs.

Unless you're squawkin' 7700 or preventing an emergency, you still gotta follow the regs, whether or not ya got four stripes.

 

[samballs]

Chq doesn't have 170s.

captain said go around twice to the FO and he still said I got it I got it. landed long, ran off the runway.

make sure you say over the radio, Tower, <callsign> going missed!

now you are committed.

Good Luck, you'll do fine.

oh and in the interview, if you get asked the captain has alcohol on his/her breathe, the answer is you would call the chief pilot. good luck

Well we all see where that srategy got them as of last month that plane was still in the hangar by the terminal in
CLE

 

[Striptyler]

Ah, the Nuremburg Defense. Good choice.

I vas only following orders! Mein Kapitan told me not to follow Das Regs.

Unless you're squawkin' 7700 or preventing an emergency, you still gotta follow the regs, whether or not ya got four stripes.

It's an interview ?, i hope to hell it not to see it happen. There are way too many variable to make it a ligeit question, so pick a good, CRM sounding answer and stick to it.

I am in no way for busting regs, But heck, 5 yrs. ago, the FO's name didn't even make it on our releases - wouldn't wan't a nobody flyin the plane would we

 

[CesnaCaptn]

Wow...
Don't cause conflict, fighting for the controls, is the LAST thing an interview CA wants to hear. If the 350hr wonder sitting next to me ever grabs the controls, i'd prob. shoot him.

The question that keeps popping up in my head has to do with the way Alaska's flight handbook is written. At minimums on a CAT II/III, if the captain doesn't say "landing," the FO's call is, "I have it, going around." Theoretically the FO is taking control of the aircraft at 50' to execute a missed approach That's not exactly "fighting over the controls," but it's pretty darn close.

What's the difference?

 

[Flyer1015]

Well we all see where that srategy got them as of last month that plane was still in the hangar by the terminal in
CLE

"Delta Connection Flight xxxx arriving at Gate 4... Gate 5.... Gate 6.... Gate 7....."

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

The best answer to this question is this: I have to rely on my instinct to determine whether I will take control of the airplane. I can't tell you in this interview what I'd do in this hypothetical situation, but if I'm scared of what the Captain is doing, I'll push up the throttles and pitch to the go-around. If I'm not scared of what he/she is doing, I will sit there, continue to call below minimums, but support the Captain in his/her illegal activity -- until I get scared.

 

[Papps]

After I posted that, I knew that post was imminent.

It was far from a "hero" moment, I shouldn't have let either situation get that far.

Well at least we know who was the "real" captain on those flights. Keep saving those left seat FO's when they "freeze up".

 

[NEDude]

The CA signed for the plane. Most FOPMs, state, that during flight, the CA has full command authority over the AC, and it's crew without limitation.

The problem is this does not jive with the way the FAA has ruled on past crew violations. FOs have been violated for following captains decisions stating that the FOs do share in responsibility for the safety of the flight and they cannot defer that responsibility to the captain. Seems the POIs approving that wording in ops manuals are not in tune with the current thinking of administrative law judges who are ruling on violations.