Question about Southwest...

NavyMetro

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On Southwest's Site, when filling out the Supplemental Pilot Information Form it describes PIC Time. My question is for the Military Pilot's section. It states: "Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft." What is "Primary Time"? What does this statement exactly mean?
Thanks in advance.
 

InHot

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Primary Time

As far as Naval aviation I think they're talking "first-pilot" and "copilot" that we use to log in naval avaition.

"First Pilot" equaling the civilain "Pilot flying" (PF) and "co-pilot" equaling "Pilot Not flying" (PNF).

In the Fleet Marine Corps we always use to split the flight time between "first pilot" and "co-pilot" regardless of aircraft commander designation.

"First Pilot" time does not count as PIC unless you were the aircraft commander.

However all flight time logged as aircraft commander time can be logged as PIC regardless if you logged time as "first Pilot" or "copilot."

For example in the trng command I might fly a 2.0 hour hop. I give the stud 1.8 first pilot and .2 copilot. I log .2 first pilot and 1.8 co-pilot. However I log 2.0 as aircraft commander. That 2.0 aircraft commander time is considered PIC time.

That's my take on it, If I've got this wrong, someone correct me.
 

ck130

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Navymetro,

SWA is actually the most straight forward of all the apps to fill out. Report ALL (that's right ALL) time as PIC after you have upgraded to AC in that aircraft. For example, if you upgraded to AC in the C-12 at 1500tt, and you now have 2500tt, you put down on the app that you have 1000hrs PIC in the C-12. It does not matter who signed for the plane or how you split FP & CP time. Pretty cool eh? Also don't forget to add in 20 min per sortie to acount for startup and taxi out. Another nice SWAism. Good luck


Fly Safe
ck130
 

Phrogs4ever

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So does that mean I can count all time after safe-for-solo in the T-34 as PIC time?
 

InHot

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Not!

ck130,

I disagree about logging all time as PIC after making aircraft commander regardless of who signed for the airplane.

As I recall, (and I'm cheating here, cause I have my logbook in front of me) there is a column in your "Aviators Flight Log Book" labeled "A/C comdr."

If your 7041's did their job right every time you were the aircraft commander (and indicated it on the yellow sheet for that flight) there should be an entry attesting to that fact.

Now, assuming you're hovering near the required turbine PIC min of 1000, the logbook checker at your SWA interview starts checking that column for the totals. What if it doesn't jive?

OUCH!!

Here's the verbage from the SWA site:

"For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot."

I'm no genius, nor an expert on the subject, and I might be wrong on my take on this subject.
However I recommend you to be very comfortable with what you list and be able to discuss it with anyone who may have a question.

Phrog - anytime solo time in the T-34 can be logged as PIC. Anytime you were with an instructor should be listed as "dual recieved" or "student." Again, just my take on the matter.

As a last resort, I'm sure that if you were to call SWA, they would be able to enlighten you as to their take on the subject.
Good Luck!
 

Cosmo007

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NavyMetro,

Since you already have the type-rating, I would not be worried about max'ing out your PIC time with liberal interpretations of PIC. Whatever method you use, if you meet the SW minimums, you will get an interview - and very soon since you have the type. An extra 100-200 hours PIC will not make the difference in getting hired (it's the interview).

What I counted as PIC (I'm Navy also):

* FP/2P time ("total pilot time") when I signed as AC cmdr (did not include 3P time even if it was "A" time; it would probably be fine, but it would have made my FP+2P "total pilot time" different than PIC+SC+student)
* FP time after qual'd as AC cmdr, but not signing for AC
* T-34 solo time (if you weren't AC cmdr, who was?)

I felt that this was the most conservative way to go (guess what type of airline you're applying to..) and I had the minimums even without all of the extra time. I personally did not use the .3 per mil sortie, again, because I had the minimums without it; but if you need it, use it. For comparison, not using the 3P "A" time cost me approx. 175 PIC hours, and not using the .3 per sortie cost another approx. 150 PIC hours. By the way, it was the People Dept that told me not to worry about the .3 conversion if I had the mins without it.

I did not see the need to make things more confusing or having to explain anything. No logbook questions were asked at my interview and I start class in two weeks.

Best of luck,
Cosmo007
 

NavyMetro

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First of all, thanks to those who responded to my question. The reason I asked this was because I already filled out my "Supplemental Pilot Information Form" and was called for an interview. I wanted to make sure I did it right. My interpretation for the PIC was exactly the same as Cosmo007's. For example the: "* FP time after qual'd as AC cmdr, but not signing for AC". It seems people are split on this interpretation. I'm quessing I should do it the same way with the Application they send to me? I don't want to get in there and have to explain something I did wrong. I was thinking I could go extra conservative on the Application, but then the numbers will not match up with the "Supplemental Form". Cosmo, I'm assuming since you were hired (congrat's) they said everything was the way it should have been? Once again, thanks.
 

ck130

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InHot,

I stand corrected. I just looked at the web page and apparently things have changed. As it reads now, all AC time and all "Primary" (First pilot) time after upgrading to AC in that aircraft can be counted toward that magical PIC number. This is really a big change because several guys in my unit (myself included) where just waiting to get those 1000 hours after upgrading to AC to put in there SWA apps. Sorry if I caused any confusion. You know what they say, "Live by the gouge die by the gouge." Good luck.

Fly Safe
ck130
 

MLBWINGBORN

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Hey guys..

Two reminders..

When you are invited to the interview you will be sent a package that asks that you bring your log books and have them tabulated..Your logs may be looked at by someone that knows nothing about logging time other than the check list they have to use when going thru your books..

Make it as easy on them as possible to find ALL the mins and major points in your flying history as well as those that are contained on your resume/application..

If the review of your logs takes longer than 30 seconds you havnt done your homework and they are going to take longer to find what they need..The longer the cover is open the longer you are exposed to the possibility of being asked questions that may increase your heart rate...

So..Make up an index in the front of your logs that shows where all the mins are and the major points of your application and resume..Then reference the index and tab those pages in the logs..They will really take notice of the effort that you put into the logs and will make positive comments on your log book review sheet..

Again..Sounds pretty simple....But it works...

The closer you are to the mins the harder they tend to look..Make very sure that you can back up whats in the logs if you happen the get someone that knows what to look for..

You DONT want to be one of the last guys/gals to interview because you cant explain your logs or they cant find what they need..

Mike
MLBWINGBORN
 

qxeplt

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Listen to the Man..

Mike is absolutely right...

When I interviewed back in June they were very impressed by my logbook presentation. I had gone down to Office Depot and bought different colored tabs to mark my minimums and other areas I thought they'd be interested in. The idea is to make everything as easy as possible for them. Tab - when you acquired SWA minimums, type date, ect. I also found some folders I was able to customize with a SWA logo and my name on the cover. Looking around the table at other interviewee’s paperwork many had made their paperwork very SWA specific. I’m not sure how SWA views all of that, at the end they just take your pile of paperwork and give back folders and such. I’m convinced they’re awed by paperwork organization. I don’t know if it means the job or not but it projects your professionalism as a pilot and it might indicate your type of organization in the cockpit as well to SWA…
 

BrokenWing

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ck130 said:
InHot,

I stand corrected. I just looked at the web page and apparently things have changed. As it reads now, all AC time and all "Primary" (First pilot) time after upgrading to AC in that aircraft can be counted toward that magical PIC number. This is really a big change because several guys in my unit (myself included) where just waiting to get those 1000 hours after upgrading to AC to put in there SWA apps. Sorry if I caused any confusion. You know what they say, "Live by the gouge die by the gouge." Good luck.

Fly Safe
ck130
ck130,

I think you may have missed on this one. Here's the ref from the SWA web site:

"For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot. "

I don't think this means that you can log all your time as PIC time once you've upgraded. If you haven't signed for the plane, you can't count it as PIC time. Seems pretty clear to me.
 

Phrogs4ever

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"For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot. Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft. Time logged, as "Other Time" will not be considered. When converting taxi time a conversion factor of .3 or eighteen minutes, per leg/sortie should be used. These guidelines are imposed by Southwest Airlines for the purpose of standardizing the calculation of flight time. "


If you read the very next sentence in the paragraph you're quoting, it does say that primary time (first pilot time) is PIC time after upgrade to aircraft commander. Another detail I just noticed, is that military pilots can add a 0.3 per LEG. At least in Navy/Marine log books, that means you have to look in the far right column of your log book entry and see how many destinations were flown to on that particular navflir. For example, if I logged a 7.0 for a RJOI-RKTH-ROTM-RJOI, then I can add an extra 0.9 to that flight time total. Heck, that's a better deal than the no-matching Thrift Savings Plan.
 
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BrokenWing

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That's a pretty liberal interpretation considering the .3 hour conversion is for TAXI time. You may have a tough time explaining your .3 addition per leg during the logbook review.
 

Magic

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For what it's worth,

If you accomplished a full stop landing and a subsequent takeoff, the .3 can be added for each leg as it is counted as a separate sortie. Doing a drop in for a touch & go doesn't count.
 

Phrogs4ever

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OK BrokenWing, I'll give you the benefit here and assume you thought my previous post was a local instrument training flight where I never executed a full stop. Let me make this a little more clear. I take off from RJOI in a C-12 and fly to RKTH (1.5 hrs), shut down on the south ramp to refuel and pick up 5 pax. Then I fly to ROTM (3.5 hrs), shut down and drop the pax off. Refuel and have lunch with the crew. Then we fly back home to RJOI (2.0 hrs). That's three separate legs, and yes, three separate TAXI evolutions, and hell yes, I'm adding 0.9 to that day's flight time total. And based on Southwest's own wording, you better believe I can explain that in all good faith at an interview if I had to. I'm a helo bubba, and I am certainly not going to cheat myself out of legitimate MEFW flight time if there's no question about it's validity.
 

BrokenWing

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Your explanation is right on. In your original post you made it sound like you could add .3 for each leg, not for each sortie. I don't blame you for adding the .3 for each sortie as you're allowed to do - good luck towards your goal.
 

YeOldeProp

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Just to throw a bit more gas onto the fire, what's the concensus on the "Time logged as Other Time will not be considered" (mentioned by Phrogs4ever)? If I'm the PIC (A-code on the flight orders for USAF types) on a mission with a couple of younger pilots and let them take the seats for a leg, I'm still considered PIC (responsible for the aircraft and crew) even if I'm standing and watching over their shoulder. Or, on one aircraft I flew, we carried an "NVG safety pilot" along on some missions, and when the night was done, the times got split among the pilots 3-ways (giving me a bunch of extra "other time"). But I was the A-code for the entire mission. This makes it interesting when you try to add up your PIC and your SIC, and then have your complete, overall total time showing several hundred hours higher. I have the mins for most apps covered and have chosen to try and ignore the other time as much as I can, but thought the group might have some comments on the subject. Be interesting to hear...
 

Magic

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FWIW I counted NO "Other" time even though, like you, there were times I logged it when I was technically the PIC. There wasn't enough to make it worth raising anyone's eyebrow. Had I kept a civilian logbook and dutifully logged all of my time, I still wouldn't have used it. I would ALWAYS take the conservative approach. My goal is to not have worry about explaining ANYTHING about my flying time at an interview.
 

Cosmo007

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YeOldeProp,

I totally agree with Magic. I also went the conservative route to keep things simple and easy. As mentioned in my previous post, I lost about 175 hours of true "A" time due to three pilot crews on P-3's. I had the mins without it, so I didn't use it, and it kept my flight times equal (TPT="A"+SIC+Student). Got not even a blink about logbooks/flight time at my interview, but it would have been easy to answer any questions.

Cosmo007
 

Shooter38

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Ditto to Cosmo's post

Same for me, I did not want ANY doubts that I tried to count other time (~300 hrs). Yes, I had the mins by a decent amount so I figured it didn't matter. They didn't ask one question about my logbook at the interview, and the review lasted all of 2 mins asking about people the checker might have commonly known.

The funny thing was that after I subtracted all other time, and added the .3 conversion, it was within 10 hrs! Guess all those 1.1 T-38 sorties added up...

The other situation I ran into was what to do when I flew with another instructor. Our flight records have no "A" code like the navy or MWS, so I just figured a conservative % of the time I was not the senior IP, and subtracted it.

Keep it conservative and as easy to understand as possible, and you'll be fine.
 
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