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NavyMetro

Member
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Posts
11
On Southwest's Site, when filling out the Supplemental Pilot Information Form it describes PIC Time. My question is for the Military Pilot's section. It states: "Primary time will only be considered PIC on a specific aircraft after an individual upgrades to Aircraft Commander in the appropriate aircraft." What is "Primary Time"? What does this statement exactly mean?
Thanks in advance.
 
Primary Time

As far as Naval aviation I think they're talking "first-pilot" and "copilot" that we use to log in naval avaition.

"First Pilot" equaling the civilain "Pilot flying" (PF) and "co-pilot" equaling "Pilot Not flying" (PNF).

In the Fleet Marine Corps we always use to split the flight time between "first pilot" and "co-pilot" regardless of aircraft commander designation.

"First Pilot" time does not count as PIC unless you were the aircraft commander.

However all flight time logged as aircraft commander time can be logged as PIC regardless if you logged time as "first Pilot" or "copilot."

For example in the trng command I might fly a 2.0 hour hop. I give the stud 1.8 first pilot and .2 copilot. I log .2 first pilot and 1.8 co-pilot. However I log 2.0 as aircraft commander. That 2.0 aircraft commander time is considered PIC time.

That's my take on it, If I've got this wrong, someone correct me.
 
Navymetro,

SWA is actually the most straight forward of all the apps to fill out. Report ALL (that's right ALL) time as PIC after you have upgraded to AC in that aircraft. For example, if you upgraded to AC in the C-12 at 1500tt, and you now have 2500tt, you put down on the app that you have 1000hrs PIC in the C-12. It does not matter who signed for the plane or how you split FP & CP time. Pretty cool eh? Also don't forget to add in 20 min per sortie to acount for startup and taxi out. Another nice SWAism. Good luck


Fly Safe
ck130
 
Not!

ck130,

I disagree about logging all time as PIC after making aircraft commander regardless of who signed for the airplane.

As I recall, (and I'm cheating here, cause I have my logbook in front of me) there is a column in your "Aviators Flight Log Book" labeled "A/C comdr."

If your 7041's did their job right every time you were the aircraft commander (and indicated it on the yellow sheet for that flight) there should be an entry attesting to that fact.

Now, assuming you're hovering near the required turbine PIC min of 1000, the logbook checker at your SWA interview starts checking that column for the totals. What if it doesn't jive?

OUCH!!

Here's the verbage from the SWA site:

"For military personnel, Southwest Airlines will allow flight time logged as "Pilot In Command" (PIC) only if you are the Captain/Aircraft Commander or Instructor Pilot."

I'm no genius, nor an expert on the subject, and I might be wrong on my take on this subject.
However I recommend you to be very comfortable with what you list and be able to discuss it with anyone who may have a question.

Phrog - anytime solo time in the T-34 can be logged as PIC. Anytime you were with an instructor should be listed as "dual recieved" or "student." Again, just my take on the matter.

As a last resort, I'm sure that if you were to call SWA, they would be able to enlighten you as to their take on the subject.
Good Luck!
 
NavyMetro,

Since you already have the type-rating, I would not be worried about max'ing out your PIC time with liberal interpretations of PIC. Whatever method you use, if you meet the SW minimums, you will get an interview - and very soon since you have the type. An extra 100-200 hours PIC will not make the difference in getting hired (it's the interview).

What I counted as PIC (I'm Navy also):

* FP/2P time ("total pilot time") when I signed as AC cmdr (did not include 3P time even if it was "A" time; it would probably be fine, but it would have made my FP+2P "total pilot time" different than PIC+SC+student)
* FP time after qual'd as AC cmdr, but not signing for AC
* T-34 solo time (if you weren't AC cmdr, who was?)

I felt that this was the most conservative way to go (guess what type of airline you're applying to..) and I had the minimums even without all of the extra time. I personally did not use the .3 per mil sortie, again, because I had the minimums without it; but if you need it, use it. For comparison, not using the 3P "A" time cost me approx. 175 PIC hours, and not using the .3 per sortie cost another approx. 150 PIC hours. By the way, it was the People Dept that told me not to worry about the .3 conversion if I had the mins without it.

I did not see the need to make things more confusing or having to explain anything. No logbook questions were asked at my interview and I start class in two weeks.

Best of luck,
Cosmo007
 
First of all, thanks to those who responded to my question. The reason I asked this was because I already filled out my "Supplemental Pilot Information Form" and was called for an interview. I wanted to make sure I did it right. My interpretation for the PIC was exactly the same as Cosmo007's. For example the: "* FP time after qual'd as AC cmdr, but not signing for AC". It seems people are split on this interpretation. I'm quessing I should do it the same way with the Application they send to me? I don't want to get in there and have to explain something I did wrong. I was thinking I could go extra conservative on the Application, but then the numbers will not match up with the "Supplemental Form". Cosmo, I'm assuming since you were hired (congrat's) they said everything was the way it should have been? Once again, thanks.
 
InHot,

I stand corrected. I just looked at the web page and apparently things have changed. As it reads now, all AC time and all "Primary" (First pilot) time after upgrading to AC in that aircraft can be counted toward that magical PIC number. This is really a big change because several guys in my unit (myself included) where just waiting to get those 1000 hours after upgrading to AC to put in there SWA apps. Sorry if I caused any confusion. You know what they say, "Live by the gouge die by the gouge." Good luck.

Fly Safe
ck130
 
Hey guys..

Two reminders..

When you are invited to the interview you will be sent a package that asks that you bring your log books and have them tabulated..Your logs may be looked at by someone that knows nothing about logging time other than the check list they have to use when going thru your books..

Make it as easy on them as possible to find ALL the mins and major points in your flying history as well as those that are contained on your resume/application..

If the review of your logs takes longer than 30 seconds you havnt done your homework and they are going to take longer to find what they need..The longer the cover is open the longer you are exposed to the possibility of being asked questions that may increase your heart rate...

So..Make up an index in the front of your logs that shows where all the mins are and the major points of your application and resume..Then reference the index and tab those pages in the logs..They will really take notice of the effort that you put into the logs and will make positive comments on your log book review sheet..

Again..Sounds pretty simple....But it works...

The closer you are to the mins the harder they tend to look..Make very sure that you can back up whats in the logs if you happen the get someone that knows what to look for..

You DONT want to be one of the last guys/gals to interview because you cant explain your logs or they cant find what they need..

Mike
MLBWINGBORN
 
Listen to the Man..

Mike is absolutely right...

When I interviewed back in June they were very impressed by my logbook presentation. I had gone down to Office Depot and bought different colored tabs to mark my minimums and other areas I thought they'd be interested in. The idea is to make everything as easy as possible for them. Tab - when you acquired SWA minimums, type date, ect. I also found some folders I was able to customize with a SWA logo and my name on the cover. Looking around the table at other interviewee’s paperwork many had made their paperwork very SWA specific. I’m not sure how SWA views all of that, at the end they just take your pile of paperwork and give back folders and such. I’m convinced they’re awed by paperwork organization. I don’t know if it means the job or not but it projects your professionalism as a pilot and it might indicate your type of organization in the cockpit as well to SWA…
 

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