Question about SIC

[paid4training]

Hopefully very soon I will have the opprotunity to fly SIC in a Citation I. The cost of getting a type is in the $10,000 range and I just paid out about 6k in the last year to get my ME w/about 75 hours of multi as well as my MEI so I am kindda tapped out for fundage. Do I have to get an S.I.C rating to log the time as sic? I know I need to look in the FAR/AIM but I respect the knowedge of the forum. I plan to save up to get the type but right now I need the experience but lack the fundage

thanks in advance.....

 

[gringo]

If I´m not mistaken, the Citation I is certified `single pilot`, meaning that it doen´t require an SIC to operate it (as opposed to an ERJ, or CRJ, or F-27).

It´s a grey area, and I´m no expert on the FAR´s (nor do I ever hope to be), but I´m prrrrrety sure that, except for certain circumstances, you can´t legally log that time.

I do know that there are outfits out there that are putting warm bodies into the right seat of aircraft that don´t need them (Barons, Caravans, etc) and they log time somehow, but I can´t remember the specifics.

I´d do some more homework on this- it sounds kinda fishy, especially if the company is making you pay for an SIC type on an a/c that doesn´t require an SIC.

 

[iflyjets4food]

You can log SIC in an airplane that is type certified for one pilot if the PIC has a limitation on his/her certificate saying that an SIC is required or if the regulations that are being operated under require a second pilot, i.e. Part 135. If by these two things a SIC is required, you then have to have the training required by part 61 and the regulations operated under, again i.e. 135 requiring a checkride. Hopefully this helps.

 

[b350capt]

the citation I is certified for two pilots under FAR part 25. the Citation ISP was certified under part 23 for single pilot operations. If it is a CE500 then you can log SIC whether you have a type or not. all you have to do is satisfy the SIC requirement for 91/61 which is three takeoffs and landings, and some ground school. Look in the FAR's for the specifics. The Citation I, II, and V are all capable of being flown single pilot with a single pilot waiver (airmen Letter of authorization). If the PIC has the waiver, then he has the ability to exercise that waiver or not. As long as it is not a CE501 which is a Citation I certified under part 23, then you do not need a type rating. The limitation for SIC required is no longer being issued, or at least it shouldn't be as the FAA does not approve of it anymore, and if you go to FlightSaftey or SimuFlite for a recurrent with that SIC limitation, they will take it off. If you got the type rating, assuming you're flying under part 91, you will be able to log PIC and SIC depending on if you're PF or PNF (whether you are ACTING as PIC or not). If its 135, then you will need the 135.293/297/299 rides. Hope this helps.

 

[b350capt]

let me be more specific, if you get a full type rating you can log PIC or SIC. If you are getting the SIC only type rating required for international 135 operations, i think june is the compliance date, then you can't log PIC time.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

When did they stop putting the SIC required limitation on the PIC type. (I'd like to have less limitations then type ratings some day)

 

[b350capt]

my initial type in the ce500 had the sic required limitation. then i went to flightsafety, they took one look at the certificate and said, oh good grief, not another one. This was in 2001. I know that if you do the type rating in the actual aircraft, at some of the cheaper schools they still might. The idea i think was that the aircraft was certified for two crew, and to establish the difference between the 500/501 and the waiver differences, they would put this limitation on. It also has to do with HBATs that limit the crew qualifications for single pilot turbojet aircraft. Any major school such as FlightSafety, SimuFlite, Simcom, etc do not put this limitation on it because the FAA does not techinically regocnize it as a limitation. If done by a DPE (examinier) thats not 142 qualified, its to prevent exposure to a pilot getting in a CE500 and assuming that because he did the type ride in a 501 that he can fly it single pilot. Its to protect crews for thinking they are qualified for single pilot operations, when they're not. You have to take a specific checkride with the FAA every six months i believe, in the aircraft, not in a simulator. After your first check, i believe you can do single pilot reccurrent in a sim but dont quote me on it. Man this got long, sorry.....

 

[JAFI]

The “SIC Required” limitation should only be used if the applicant took the type ride in a single pilot required aircraft (ex. Beech 1900, citation 501) but used a second crewmember to take the exam. An example would be when a type ride is done with a SIC during a 135 check ride in a single pilot aircraft. The limitation can be removed during a checkride in the aircraft when the applicant demonstrates they can fly with out a SIC. To my knowledge you cannot remove the limitation in a simulator unless the school has an approved course to remove the limitation. I do not know of any 141/142 school that has such a course.

You can find the requirements in the ATP PTS.

JAFI

 

[WMUSIGPI]

so because I took the type in a ce-500 that had the single pilot waiver for it's serial number I got stuck with the limitation? If I had done everything in the sim I wouldn't have it? (not an option at that time since I didn't meet the requirements to take the ride in the sim) Do I need to take another checkride to remove the limitation or does the FAA automatically do so if I point it out to them?

 

[paid4training]

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I should go into a little detail about the situation. My old flight instructor is aquiring a citation I (another one of his students is buying it) and he wants to put it in a 135 operation. He wants me to be apart of it (i.e fly the thing) but I just don't have the cash flow right now to go to Flight safety or wherever you can go and get the type. I still want to find out if it is legal to log the time while I sit right seat, SIC or if I can log it at all. I am going to get paid for it because it is my contact for the 135 operation and I really want to get the experience, but log it. If the 135 operator requires two pilots regardless of single pilot operations or not can I log it as SIC or just sit there?