Bushhatesyou
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Question about SIC
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To be SIC, you need to comply with 61.55 (basically three takeoff and landings, maneuvering with an engine inop, plus "familiarization" with aircraft limitations and procedures). Under 135, you need to complete a 135 training program and checkride.
If these guys are going to use you either under 91 or 135, they should pay for your training. Let's get that straight first.
A Citation 501 is certified for single pilot operations if certain conditions, which are specified in the AFM limitations section, are complied with. Those conditions include the PIC being in the left seat, having and using a boom microphone, and the autopilot being operative. No boom microphone, it's a 2 pilot aircraft, so keep that in mind.
As for the "SIC required" on the type rating thing, that is just because the FAA didn't really have a way to handle it when the Citation was certified. The amazing thing was that if you took your checkride in a 501, and used an SIC, you got a limitation. If you took it in a 500 (2 pilots required) and used an SIC, no limitation.
If these guys are going to use you either under 91 or 135, they should pay for your training. Let's get that straight first.
A Citation 501 is certified for single pilot operations if certain conditions, which are specified in the AFM limitations section, are complied with. Those conditions include the PIC being in the left seat, having and using a boom microphone, and the autopilot being operative. No boom microphone, it's a 2 pilot aircraft, so keep that in mind.
As for the "SIC required" on the type rating thing, that is just because the FAA didn't really have a way to handle it when the Citation was certified. The amazing thing was that if you took your checkride in a 501, and used an SIC, you got a limitation. If you took it in a 500 (2 pilots required) and used an SIC, no limitation.
Paid 4,
The SIC Limitation topic has been beat to death on a couple of boards. And it has been a while since I messed with Citation Type ratings. So I did some research.
FAA Order 8700 – General Aviation Operations Inspector Handbook
CHAPTER 9. CONDUCT A PILOT TYPE RATING CERTIFICATION
7. SINGLE-PILOT CREWMEMBER. A pilot who applies for a type rating in an aircraft for which the pilot is required to hold a type rating as a single-pilot crewmember, must meet all applicable PTS criteria while satisfactorily demonstrating single pilot competency in that aircraft. This requires that the pilot demonstrate, without assistance, the required maneuvers and procedures during the practical test with the skill necessary for safe single-pilot operation.
A. Cessna 500-Series Aircraft. The holder of a CE-500 pilot type rating is entitled to act as pilot- in command (PIC) in Cessna models 500, 501, 550, 551, S550, and 560. However, Cessna models 500, 550, S550, and 560 require the use of an SIC.
(1) The successful completion of a certification practical test in any of the Cessna 500 models listed in paragraph 7A of this section will qualify the applicant for a CE-500 pilot type rating.
(2) An airman who obtains a pilot type rating as a single-pilot crewmember in models 501 and 551 may also operate models 500, 550, S550, and 560 as a member of a two-person crew.
(3) A model 501 or 551 certification practical test may be used to satisfy the requirements of a § 61.58 PIC proficiency check for any Cessna 500 model requiring an SIC.
B. Limitation. The limitation "SECOND IN COMMAND REQUIRED" is NOT placed on the Temporary Airman Certificate issued to an airman who satisfactorily accomplishes a practical test in either the CE-501 or CE-551. This limitation is appropriate only to the operation of Special Federal Aviation Regulation (SFAR) 41 airplanes. The practical test in the 501 or 551 models must be accomplished as a single-pilot crewmember. (None of the Cessna 500-series aircraft are SFAR 41 airplanes.)
But, back to the original question. If the Type Data Certificate required two pilot crew members (in this case an SIC) you will be able to log the time you fly as SIC. If the Citation only requires one crew member (501 or 551) an SIC in not required so No, you cannot log SIC time in that aircraft (unless you are flying part 135 which does require an SIC under part 135).
The Insurance companies may have something to say about a SIC that has not gone through some formal training (FlightSafety) with 500 hours total time especially all non jet time.
The Citation is a great flying aircraft. Go for the experience if you can. Good Luck in your endeavor.
JAFI
The SIC Limitation topic has been beat to death on a couple of boards. And it has been a while since I messed with Citation Type ratings. So I did some research.
FAA Order 8700 – General Aviation Operations Inspector Handbook
CHAPTER 9. CONDUCT A PILOT TYPE RATING CERTIFICATION
7. SINGLE-PILOT CREWMEMBER. A pilot who applies for a type rating in an aircraft for which the pilot is required to hold a type rating as a single-pilot crewmember, must meet all applicable PTS criteria while satisfactorily demonstrating single pilot competency in that aircraft. This requires that the pilot demonstrate, without assistance, the required maneuvers and procedures during the practical test with the skill necessary for safe single-pilot operation.
A. Cessna 500-Series Aircraft. The holder of a CE-500 pilot type rating is entitled to act as pilot- in command (PIC) in Cessna models 500, 501, 550, 551, S550, and 560. However, Cessna models 500, 550, S550, and 560 require the use of an SIC.
(1) The successful completion of a certification practical test in any of the Cessna 500 models listed in paragraph 7A of this section will qualify the applicant for a CE-500 pilot type rating.
(2) An airman who obtains a pilot type rating as a single-pilot crewmember in models 501 and 551 may also operate models 500, 550, S550, and 560 as a member of a two-person crew.
(3) A model 501 or 551 certification practical test may be used to satisfy the requirements of a § 61.58 PIC proficiency check for any Cessna 500 model requiring an SIC.
B. Limitation. The limitation "SECOND IN COMMAND REQUIRED" is NOT placed on the Temporary Airman Certificate issued to an airman who satisfactorily accomplishes a practical test in either the CE-501 or CE-551. This limitation is appropriate only to the operation of Special Federal Aviation Regulation (SFAR) 41 airplanes. The practical test in the 501 or 551 models must be accomplished as a single-pilot crewmember. (None of the Cessna 500-series aircraft are SFAR 41 airplanes.)
But, back to the original question. If the Type Data Certificate required two pilot crew members (in this case an SIC) you will be able to log the time you fly as SIC. If the Citation only requires one crew member (501 or 551) an SIC in not required so No, you cannot log SIC time in that aircraft (unless you are flying part 135 which does require an SIC under part 135).
The Insurance companies may have something to say about a SIC that has not gone through some formal training (FlightSafety) with 500 hours total time especially all non jet time.
The Citation is a great flying aircraft. Go for the experience if you can. Good Luck in your endeavor.
JAFI
It seems since you mentioned it was a citation I not a Isp, that you will need to have a 135.293 checkride either in the aircraft or in a simulator. The Citation I requires 2 pilots, unless your old instructor is single pilot qualified and the aircraft satisfies the AFM limitation. If he IS, then you can operatate domestic flights in the right seat as an employee, as long as you dont manipulate the controls, and you can't log the time. Doesn't seem to be worth much, other than aircraft familiarization, but its a start. But i agree with all on the board, that if he is going to fly it part 135, he should be paying for your training. If he can't afford to train you, he can't afford to be in business, period....
Unless things have changed (and looking at JAFI's post, I don't think they have), the answer is YES. Even though you are using an SIC.
The equipment on the aircraft doesn't make any difference. I also do not think you need to demonstrate any sort of single pilot competency.
The numbers are easy-- if it ends in a "1" then it's single pilot. So CE-501 and CE-551 are single pilot aircraft.
CE-500, CE-550, CE-S550, CE-560, etc. are all 2 pilot.
The non-single pilot aircraft can be flown single pilot with a waiver, but that is a whole separate topic from this thread.
The equipment on the aircraft doesn't make any difference. I also do not think you need to demonstrate any sort of single pilot competency.
The numbers are easy-- if it ends in a "1" then it's single pilot. So CE-501 and CE-551 are single pilot aircraft.
CE-500, CE-550, CE-S550, CE-560, etc. are all 2 pilot.
The non-single pilot aircraft can be flown single pilot with a waiver, but that is a whole separate topic from this thread.
flyer172r said:
Last edited:
If you look at the Type Certificate Data Sheets it lists the required crew members:
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...FFE67565D8900482862570FC0053815D?OpenDocument
TYPE CERTIFICATE DATA SHEET NO. A22CE
I - Model 500, Citation and Citation I, (Transport Category), Approved September 9, 1971
Minimum Crew For all flights: 2 persons (pilot and co-pilot)
II - Model 550, Citation II, (Transport Category), Approved March 24, 1978
Minimum Crew For all flights: 2 persons (pilot and co-pilot)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/CE2E14E75632777B86256D020051B3F7?OpenDocument
TYPE CERTIFICATE DATA SHEET NO. A27CE
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
Minimum Crew For all flights: one pilot plus equipment specified in the Airplane Flight Manual, or two pilots
----------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...FFE67565D8900482862570FC0053815D?OpenDocument
TYPE CERTIFICATE DATA SHEET NO. A22CE
I - Model 500, Citation and Citation I, (Transport Category), Approved September 9, 1971
Minimum Crew For all flights: 2 persons (pilot and co-pilot)
II - Model 550, Citation II, (Transport Category), Approved March 24, 1978
Minimum Crew For all flights: 2 persons (pilot and co-pilot)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/CE2E14E75632777B86256D020051B3F7?OpenDocument
TYPE CERTIFICATE DATA SHEET NO. A27CE
[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
I - Model 501, Citation, (Normal Category), Approved January 7, 1977
[/FONT] Minimum Crew For all flights: one pilot plus equipment specified in the Airplane Flight Manual, or two pilots
----------------------------------------------------------------------
501261
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Why "or two pilots"
Now back to the ISP, and this has always been an question for me, the Type Certificate, states one pilot, OR two pilots, which in my opinion separates it from other airplanes like the King Air, whose type certificate specifically states "one pilot".
Why "OR TWO PILOTS"?
I've felt that if you had a properly certified (61.55) SIC onboard and are operating as a crew, that SIC should be able to log the time as an SIC in a ISP or IISP because of the "Or two pilots" statement.
Of course the other school of thought is that if the SIC didn't show up and the flight is still legal to go, then that SIC shouldn't be able to log the SIC time.
I think the misperception is that a lot of people just throw a commercial pilot in the right seat and tell them they can log it all as SIC time. These "seat warmers" often do not meet the requirements of 61.55, and obviously should not be allowed to log any time.
On the other hand should a simulator trained SIC who flies every leg other be punished by not being able to log the flight time, because he's flying a 551 instead of a 550 (that could very well have been a 550 before it's "sex change", STC)?
Jafi, first I'd like to thank you for your insight into this question and your input into these forums.JAFI said:
Now back to the ISP, and this has always been an question for me, the Type Certificate, states one pilot, OR two pilots, which in my opinion separates it from other airplanes like the King Air, whose type certificate specifically states "one pilot".
Why "OR TWO PILOTS"?
I've felt that if you had a properly certified (61.55) SIC onboard and are operating as a crew, that SIC should be able to log the time as an SIC in a ISP or IISP because of the "Or two pilots" statement.
Of course the other school of thought is that if the SIC didn't show up and the flight is still legal to go, then that SIC shouldn't be able to log the SIC time.
I think the misperception is that a lot of people just throw a commercial pilot in the right seat and tell them they can log it all as SIC time. These "seat warmers" often do not meet the requirements of 61.55, and obviously should not be allowed to log any time.
On the other hand should a simulator trained SIC who flies every leg other be punished by not being able to log the flight time, because he's flying a 551 instead of a 550 (that could very well have been a 550 before it's "sex change", STC)?
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