Question about SIC

[flyer172r]

So if someone takes a checkride in the 500 (not single-pilot certified, I think, getting my numbers confused), can he then fly single-pilot in the 501?

 

[b350capt]

assuming the aircraft has the single pilot equipment, boom mike, txpdr ident on yoke, etc (per AFM) yes. with no special requirements.

 

[some_dude]

Unless things have changed (and looking at JAFI's post, I don't think they have), the answer is YES. Even though you are using an SIC.

The equipment on the aircraft doesn't make any difference. I also do not think you need to demonstrate any sort of single pilot competency.

The numbers are easy-- if it ends in a "1" then it's single pilot. So CE-501 and CE-551 are single pilot aircraft.

CE-500, CE-550, CE-S550, CE-560, etc. are all 2 pilot.

The non-single pilot aircraft can be flown single pilot with a waiver, but that is a whole separate topic from this thread.

So if someone takes a checkride in the 500 (not single-pilot certified, I think, getting my numbers confused), can he then fly single-pilot in the 501?

 

[JAFI]

If you look at the Type Certificate Data Sheets it lists the required crew members:


http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...FFE67565D8900482862570FC0053815D?OpenDocument

TYPE CERTIFICATE DATA SHEET NO. A22CE

I - Model 500, Citation and Citation I, (Transport Category), Approved September 9, 1971

Minimum Crew For all flights: 2 persons (pilot and co-pilot)

II - Model 550, Citation II, (Transport Category), Approved March 24, 1978

Minimum Crew For all flights: 2 persons (pilot and co-pilot)

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http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/CE2E14E75632777B86256D020051B3F7?OpenDocument

TYPE CERTIFICATE DATA SHEET NO. A27CE

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I - Model 501, Citation, (Normal Category), Approved January 7, 1977​

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Minimum Crew For all flights: one pilot plus equipment specified in the Airplane Flight Manual, or two pilots
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[501261]

Why "or two pilots"

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http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/CE2E14E75632777B86256D020051B3F7?OpenDocument

TYPE CERTIFICATE DATA SHEET NO. A27CE







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I - Model 501, Citation, (Normal Category), Approved January 7, 1977​

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[/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
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Minimum Crew For all flights: one pilot plus equipment specified in the Airplane Flight Manual, or two pilots
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Jafi, first I'd like to thank you for your insight into this question and your input into these forums.

Now back to the ISP, and this has always been an question for me, the Type Certificate, states one pilot, OR two pilots, which in my opinion separates it from other airplanes like the King Air, whose type certificate specifically states "one pilot".

Why "OR TWO PILOTS"?

I've felt that if you had a properly certified (61.55) SIC onboard and are operating as a crew, that SIC should be able to log the time as an SIC in a ISP or IISP because of the "Or two pilots" statement.

Of course the other school of thought is that if the SIC didn't show up and the flight is still legal to go, then that SIC shouldn't be able to log the SIC time.

I think the misperception is that a lot of people just throw a commercial pilot in the right seat and tell them they can log it all as SIC time. These "seat warmers" often do not meet the requirements of 61.55, and obviously should not be allowed to log any time.

On the other hand should a simulator trained SIC who flies every leg other be punished by not being able to log the flight time, because he's flying a 551 instead of a 550 (that could very well have been a 550 before it's "sex change", STC)?

 

[some_dude]

I'd like to second 501261's thank you, JAFI.

Now as to the question: It is one or two pilots depending upon the equipment installed, working, and in use.

As I have said several times in this thread, one requirement is that the left seat pilot have and USE a boom microphone, in order to qualify for single pilot operations. No boom microphone for the left seat pilot, it's a two pilot aircraft and the SIC can log the time.

So get the PIC a headset without a mic, and you are in business. My interpretation, for what little it is worth (nothing!), is that if the left seat pilot unplugs his boom mic, that is probably sufficient.

Jafi, first I'd like to thank you for your insight into this question and your input into these forums.

Now back to the ISP, and this has always been an question for me, the Type Certificate, states one pilot, OR two pilots, which in my opinion separates it from other airplanes like the King Air, whose type certificate specifically states "one pilot".

Why "OR TWO PILOTS"?

I've felt that if you had a properly certified (61.55) SIC onboard and are operating as a crew, that SIC should be able to log the time as an SIC in a ISP or IISP because of the "Or two pilots" statement.

Of course the other school of thought is that if the SIC didn't show up and the flight is still legal to go, then that SIC shouldn't be able to log the SIC time.

I think the misperception is that a lot of people just throw a commercial pilot in the right seat and tell them they can log it all as SIC time. These "seat warmers" often do not meet the requirements of 61.55, and obviously should not be allowed to log any time.

On the other hand should a simulator trained SIC who flies every leg other be punished by not being able to log the flight time, because he's flying a 551 instead of a 550 (that could very well have been a 550 before it's "sex change", STC)?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

the citation I is certified for two pilots under FAR part 25. the Citation ISP was certified under part 23 for single pilot operations. If it is a CE500 then you can log SIC whether you have a type or not. all you have to do is satisfy the SIC requirement for 91/61 which is three takeoffs and landings, and some ground school. Look in the FAR's for the specifics. The Citation I, II, and V are all capable of being flown single pilot with a single pilot waiver (airmen Letter of authorization). If the PIC has the waiver, then he has the ability to exercise that waiver or not. As long as it is not a CE501 which is a Citation I certified under part 23, then you do not need a type rating. The limitation for SIC required is no longer being issued, or at least it shouldn't be as the FAA does not approve of it anymore, and if you go to FlightSaftey or SimuFlite for a recurrent with that SIC limitation, they will take it off. If you got the type rating, assuming you're flying under part 91, you will be able to log PIC and SIC depending on if you're PF or PNF (whether you are ACTING as PIC or not). If its 135, then you will need the 135.293/297/299 rides. Hope this helps.

Would Simuflite take that limitation off if I go in for a LearJet(or whatever) type, or only if I do a Citation recurrent?

 

[JAFI]

First the question:

“Why "OR TWO PILOTS"?”

If the required equipment listed in the Airplane Flight Manual (to allow only a one pilot operation) is not working the manufacturer has applied for and was approved that two pilots could legally fly the aircraft that normally only needed one pilot. Remember this is not universal to all two pilot required aircraft. In the Citation’s case the manufacturer sought to expand the use of it’s aircraft to allow more operations than a straight two pilot aircraft. IMHO they thought they could sell more aircraft this way.

I do not know if the Lear has the same set up. I tried to look at the Type Certificate Data Sheet for the Lear but was unable to get the site to open up. If you want to look later;

Here is the link to the FAA online Library:

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgWebcomponents.nsf/HomeFrame?OpenFrameSet


Next question:

“Would Simuflite take that limitation off if I go in for a LearJet(or whatever) type, or only if I do a Citation recurrent?”

A Training provider or DE (although very helpful and may facilitate correcting a certificate) is not suppose to change a certificate outside of their designation area (certification only). An Inspector or designated FSDO employee would need to correct any mistake on a certificate. This is not uncommon. The Certification Branch in OKC processes millions of documents each year and mistakes do happen. In my experience the corrections are free to the Airman.

Next question:

“On the other hand should a simulator trained SIC who flies every leg other be punished by not being able to log the flight time, because he's flying a 551 instead of a 550 (that could very well have been a 550 before it's "sex change", STC)?”

I do not know of any body that has been “punished” for logging SIC time in a 551. However, if you ask a legal kind of question, you get a legal kind of answer….. If the aircraft requires only one pilot (by aircraft certification – Think Type Certificate Data Sheet or Pilot Operating Handbook, -- or operating regulation – such as a 135 operation), then no SIC is required. How could you justify logging SIC time?

It would be great for a young pilot to gain such experience but, IMHO not logable.



On another note, Thank you for your kind words. As a long time Instructor, I enjoy working with any one who tries to improve their knowledge of the complex and constantly dynamic topic of Aviation. As a lifetime student, I also expand my horizons by reading the threads.

JAFI