Question about SIC

[paid4training]

Hopefully very soon I will have the opprotunity to fly SIC in a Citation I. The cost of getting a type is in the $10,000 range and I just paid out about 6k in the last year to get my ME w/about 75 hours of multi as well as my MEI so I am kindda tapped out for fundage. Do I have to get an S.I.C rating to log the time as sic? I know I need to look in the FAR/AIM but I respect the knowedge of the forum. I plan to save up to get the type but right now I need the experience but lack the fundage

thanks in advance.....

 

[gringo]

If I´m not mistaken, the Citation I is certified `single pilot`, meaning that it doen´t require an SIC to operate it (as opposed to an ERJ, or CRJ, or F-27).

It´s a grey area, and I´m no expert on the FAR´s (nor do I ever hope to be), but I´m prrrrrety sure that, except for certain circumstances, you can´t legally log that time.

I do know that there are outfits out there that are putting warm bodies into the right seat of aircraft that don´t need them (Barons, Caravans, etc) and they log time somehow, but I can´t remember the specifics.

I´d do some more homework on this- it sounds kinda fishy, especially if the company is making you pay for an SIC type on an a/c that doesn´t require an SIC.

 

[iflyjets4food]

You can log SIC in an airplane that is type certified for one pilot if the PIC has a limitation on his/her certificate saying that an SIC is required or if the regulations that are being operated under require a second pilot, i.e. Part 135. If by these two things a SIC is required, you then have to have the training required by part 61 and the regulations operated under, again i.e. 135 requiring a checkride. Hopefully this helps.

 

[b350capt]

the citation I is certified for two pilots under FAR part 25. the Citation ISP was certified under part 23 for single pilot operations. If it is a CE500 then you can log SIC whether you have a type or not. all you have to do is satisfy the SIC requirement for 91/61 which is three takeoffs and landings, and some ground school. Look in the FAR's for the specifics. The Citation I, II, and V are all capable of being flown single pilot with a single pilot waiver (airmen Letter of authorization). If the PIC has the waiver, then he has the ability to exercise that waiver or not. As long as it is not a CE501 which is a Citation I certified under part 23, then you do not need a type rating. The limitation for SIC required is no longer being issued, or at least it shouldn't be as the FAA does not approve of it anymore, and if you go to FlightSaftey or SimuFlite for a recurrent with that SIC limitation, they will take it off. If you got the type rating, assuming you're flying under part 91, you will be able to log PIC and SIC depending on if you're PF or PNF (whether you are ACTING as PIC or not). If its 135, then you will need the 135.293/297/299 rides. Hope this helps.

 

[b350capt]

let me be more specific, if you get a full type rating you can log PIC or SIC. If you are getting the SIC only type rating required for international 135 operations, i think june is the compliance date, then you can't log PIC time.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

When did they stop putting the SIC required limitation on the PIC type. (I'd like to have less limitations then type ratings some day)

 

[b350capt]

my initial type in the ce500 had the sic required limitation. then i went to flightsafety, they took one look at the certificate and said, oh good grief, not another one. This was in 2001. I know that if you do the type rating in the actual aircraft, at some of the cheaper schools they still might. The idea i think was that the aircraft was certified for two crew, and to establish the difference between the 500/501 and the waiver differences, they would put this limitation on. It also has to do with HBATs that limit the crew qualifications for single pilot turbojet aircraft. Any major school such as FlightSafety, SimuFlite, Simcom, etc do not put this limitation on it because the FAA does not techinically regocnize it as a limitation. If done by a DPE (examinier) thats not 142 qualified, its to prevent exposure to a pilot getting in a CE500 and assuming that because he did the type ride in a 501 that he can fly it single pilot. Its to protect crews for thinking they are qualified for single pilot operations, when they're not. You have to take a specific checkride with the FAA every six months i believe, in the aircraft, not in a simulator. After your first check, i believe you can do single pilot reccurrent in a sim but dont quote me on it. Man this got long, sorry.....

 

[JAFI]

The “SIC Required” limitation should only be used if the applicant took the type ride in a single pilot required aircraft (ex. Beech 1900, citation 501) but used a second crewmember to take the exam. An example would be when a type ride is done with a SIC during a 135 check ride in a single pilot aircraft. The limitation can be removed during a checkride in the aircraft when the applicant demonstrates they can fly with out a SIC. To my knowledge you cannot remove the limitation in a simulator unless the school has an approved course to remove the limitation. I do not know of any 141/142 school that has such a course.

You can find the requirements in the ATP PTS.

JAFI

 

[WMUSIGPI]

so because I took the type in a ce-500 that had the single pilot waiver for it's serial number I got stuck with the limitation? If I had done everything in the sim I wouldn't have it? (not an option at that time since I didn't meet the requirements to take the ride in the sim) Do I need to take another checkride to remove the limitation or does the FAA automatically do so if I point it out to them?

 

[paid4training]

Thanks for all the replies. I guess I should go into a little detail about the situation. My old flight instructor is aquiring a citation I (another one of his students is buying it) and he wants to put it in a 135 operation. He wants me to be apart of it (i.e fly the thing) but I just don't have the cash flow right now to go to Flight safety or wherever you can go and get the type. I still want to find out if it is legal to log the time while I sit right seat, SIC or if I can log it at all. I am going to get paid for it because it is my contact for the 135 operation and I really want to get the experience, but log it. If the 135 operator requires two pilots regardless of single pilot operations or not can I log it as SIC or just sit there?

 

[Bushhatesyou]

You can log SIC time IF you have taken an 8410 ride for the 135 company you are flying for. If not, you are nothing more than a passenger, and legaly are not even supposed to touch a radio dial.

 

[some_dude]

To be SIC, you need to comply with 61.55 (basically three takeoff and landings, maneuvering with an engine inop, plus "familiarization" with aircraft limitations and procedures). Under 135, you need to complete a 135 training program and checkride.

If these guys are going to use you either under 91 or 135, they should pay for your training. Let's get that straight first.

A Citation 501 is certified for single pilot operations if certain conditions, which are specified in the AFM limitations section, are complied with. Those conditions include the PIC being in the left seat, having and using a boom microphone, and the autopilot being operative. No boom microphone, it's a 2 pilot aircraft, so keep that in mind.

As for the "SIC required" on the type rating thing, that is just because the FAA didn't really have a way to handle it when the Citation was certified. The amazing thing was that if you took your checkride in a 501, and used an SIC, you got a limitation. If you took it in a 500 (2 pilots required) and used an SIC, no limitation.

 

[Slice121]

Hopefully very soon I will have the opprotunity to fly SIC in a Citation I. The cost of getting a type is in the $10,000 range and I just paid out about 6k in the last year to get my ME w/about 75 hours of multi as well as my MEI so I am kindda tapped out for fundage. Do I have to get an S.I.C rating to log the time as sic? I know I need to look in the FAR/AIM but I respect the knowedge of the forum. I plan to save up to get the type but right now I need the experience but lack the fundage

thanks in advance.....

If he is going to employ you HE should be sending you to FSI, not you on your own dime!

 

[JAFI]

Paid 4,

The SIC Limitation topic has been beat to death on a couple of boards. And it has been a while since I messed with Citation Type ratings. So I did some research.

FAA Order 8700 – General Aviation Operations Inspector Handbook

CHAPTER 9. CONDUCT A PILOT TYPE RATING CERTIFICATION

7. SINGLE-PILOT CREWMEMBER. A pilot who applies for a type rating in an aircraft for which the pilot is required to hold a type rating as a single-pilot crewmember, must meet all applicable PTS criteria while satisfactorily demonstrating single pilot competency in that aircraft. This requires that the pilot demonstrate, without assistance, the required maneuvers and procedures during the practical test with the skill necessary for safe single-pilot operation.

A. Cessna 500-Series Aircraft. The holder of a CE-500 pilot type rating is entitled to act as pilot- in command (PIC) in Cessna models 500, 501, 550, 551, S550, and 560. However, Cessna models 500, 550, S550, and 560 require the use of an SIC.

(1) The successful completion of a certification practical test in any of the Cessna 500 models listed in paragraph 7A of this section will qualify the applicant for a CE-500 pilot type rating.

(2) An airman who obtains a pilot type rating as a single-pilot crewmember in models 501 and 551 may also operate models 500, 550, S550, and 560 as a member of a two-person crew.

(3) A model 501 or 551 certification practical test may be used to satisfy the requirements of a § 61.58 PIC proficiency check for any Cessna 500 model requiring an SIC.

B. Limitation. The limitation "SECOND IN COMMAND REQUIRED" is NOT placed on the Temporary Airman Certificate issued to an airman who satisfactorily accomplishes a practical test in either the CE-501 or CE-551. This limitation is appropriate only to the operation of Special Federal Aviation Regulation (SFAR) 41 airplanes. The practical test in the 501 or 551 models must be accomplished as a single-pilot crewmember. (None of the Cessna 500-series aircraft are SFAR 41 airplanes.)



But, back to the original question. If the Type Data Certificate required two pilot crew members (in this case an SIC) you will be able to log the time you fly as SIC. If the Citation only requires one crew member (501 or 551) an SIC in not required so No, you cannot log SIC time in that aircraft (unless you are flying part 135 which does require an SIC under part 135).

The Insurance companies may have something to say about a SIC that has not gone through some formal training (FlightSafety) with 500 hours total time especially all non jet time.

The Citation is a great flying aircraft. Go for the experience if you can. Good Luck in your endeavor.

JAFI

 

[b350capt]

It seems since you mentioned it was a citation I not a Isp, that you will need to have a 135.293 checkride either in the aircraft or in a simulator. The Citation I requires 2 pilots, unless your old instructor is single pilot qualified and the aircraft satisfies the AFM limitation. If he IS, then you can operatate domestic flights in the right seat as an employee, as long as you dont manipulate the controls, and you can't log the time. Doesn't seem to be worth much, other than aircraft familiarization, but its a start. But i agree with all on the board, that if he is going to fly it part 135, he should be paying for your training. If he can't afford to train you, he can't afford to be in business, period....

 

[flyer172r]

So if someone takes a checkride in the 500 (not single-pilot certified, I think, getting my numbers confused), can he then fly single-pilot in the 501?

 

[b350capt]

assuming the aircraft has the single pilot equipment, boom mike, txpdr ident on yoke, etc (per AFM) yes. with no special requirements.

 

[some_dude]

Unless things have changed (and looking at JAFI's post, I don't think they have), the answer is YES. Even though you are using an SIC.

The equipment on the aircraft doesn't make any difference. I also do not think you need to demonstrate any sort of single pilot competency.

The numbers are easy-- if it ends in a "1" then it's single pilot. So CE-501 and CE-551 are single pilot aircraft.

CE-500, CE-550, CE-S550, CE-560, etc. are all 2 pilot.

The non-single pilot aircraft can be flown single pilot with a waiver, but that is a whole separate topic from this thread.

So if someone takes a checkride in the 500 (not single-pilot certified, I think, getting my numbers confused), can he then fly single-pilot in the 501?

 

[JAFI]

If you look at the Type Certificate Data Sheets it lists the required crew members:


http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulator...FFE67565D8900482862570FC0053815D?OpenDocument

TYPE CERTIFICATE DATA SHEET NO. A22CE

I - Model 500, Citation and Citation I, (Transport Category), Approved September 9, 1971

Minimum Crew For all flights: 2 persons (pilot and co-pilot)

II - Model 550, Citation II, (Transport Category), Approved March 24, 1978

Minimum Crew For all flights: 2 persons (pilot and co-pilot)

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http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/CE2E14E75632777B86256D020051B3F7?OpenDocument

TYPE CERTIFICATE DATA SHEET NO. A27CE

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I - Model 501, Citation, (Normal Category), Approved January 7, 1977​

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Minimum Crew For all flights: one pilot plus equipment specified in the Airplane Flight Manual, or two pilots
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[501261]

Why "or two pilots"

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http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/CE2E14E75632777B86256D020051B3F7?OpenDocument

TYPE CERTIFICATE DATA SHEET NO. A27CE







[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]

I - Model 501, Citation, (Normal Category), Approved January 7, 1977​

[FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
[/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
[/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
[/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
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[/FONT][FONT=TimesNewRoman,Bold]
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Minimum Crew For all flights: one pilot plus equipment specified in the Airplane Flight Manual, or two pilots
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Jafi, first I'd like to thank you for your insight into this question and your input into these forums.

Now back to the ISP, and this has always been an question for me, the Type Certificate, states one pilot, OR two pilots, which in my opinion separates it from other airplanes like the King Air, whose type certificate specifically states "one pilot".

Why "OR TWO PILOTS"?

I've felt that if you had a properly certified (61.55) SIC onboard and are operating as a crew, that SIC should be able to log the time as an SIC in a ISP or IISP because of the "Or two pilots" statement.

Of course the other school of thought is that if the SIC didn't show up and the flight is still legal to go, then that SIC shouldn't be able to log the SIC time.

I think the misperception is that a lot of people just throw a commercial pilot in the right seat and tell them they can log it all as SIC time. These "seat warmers" often do not meet the requirements of 61.55, and obviously should not be allowed to log any time.

On the other hand should a simulator trained SIC who flies every leg other be punished by not being able to log the flight time, because he's flying a 551 instead of a 550 (that could very well have been a 550 before it's "sex change", STC)?