Question about idling on the ramp?

[iflyabeech]

Guys,

First off, I am not here to flame. I am a huge supporter of you guys and the rest of our military. Frankly, I am jealous, I wish I would have taken your route to the skies!

Tonight as we were loading my plane for our regularly scheduled route in South Texas, there was an Air Force T-1 which started up in front of me. The guys sit right there on the ramp at what seems like a high idle speed for 10-15 minutes. I suppose running checklists, etc. Positioned behind them on the ramp, my ground crew and I couldn't communicate due to the noise and the exhaust fumes made my ground crew and I nauseous. I have had this happen numerous times. When I used to fly air ambulance, I was parked behind another T-1 which started as I stopped. I had a very sick baby who we could not unload into the hot, windy, and noxious exhaust. I walked around and tried motioning to the guys flying to cut the engine, and finally had to call ground to get them to cut off the engines so we could unload the kiddo.

I have seen Navy aircraft from Corpus and Kingsville do this as well, so I suppose it is standard practice on military bases. Given that civilian fields are different than military fields, I think you guys may not realize that your jet blast interferes with civilian operations when you sit on the ramp for extended periods of time.

Would it be possible to move to an area other than a ramp to run the checklists? Or another any other solution. . . .

I only write this friendly post here because I don't know who to call and discuss it with.


Thanks!

 

[AdlerDriver]

I doubt you're going to have much influence in changing the syllabus requirements of military training flights. Students are students and pre-flight checks are going to take a while when they're new.

I'd say you'd have better luck choosing a different parking spot. Or maybe getting the airport manager to consider re-aligning the parking spots if the current arrangement doesn't make sense.

 

[iflyabeech]

Thanks, but thats the thing. Its not just one airport. It just seems that given the time it takes, it would be more courteous and safer to the other folks on the ramp to move to a less crowded area to complete the required checks.

When I was a CFI, teaching about the effects of our prop blast was part of our syllabus.

 

[Scrapdog]

Thanks, but thats the thing. Its not just one airport. It just seems that given the time it takes, it would be more courteous and safer to the other folks on the ramp to move to a less crowded area to complete the required checks.

When I was a CFI, teaching about the effects of our prop blast was part of our syllabus.

Reference my response to the exact same post you made on APC forums.

 

[McGillicutty]

I didn't see much of a time difference between when I was instructing students in the civilian world and as a student going through NAS Corpus Christi. IIRC some of the before takeoff checks in the B-200 are a bit lengthy but that's Beechcraft, not just Navy.

 

[iflyabeech]

I didn't see much of a time difference between when I was instructing students in the civilian world and as a student going through NAS Corpus Christi. IIRC some of the before takeoff checks in the B-200 are a bit lengthy but that's Beechcraft, not just Navy.

Its not really doing takeoff checks. Its doing them on the ramp, and jet blasting others using the ramp.

Again, I am not trying to flame anyone here, just looking for a solution.

 

[jbDC9]

Its not really doing takeoff checks. Its doing them on the ramp, and jet blasting others using the ramp.

Again, I am not trying to flame anyone here, just looking for a solution.

I'm kinda glad Mr Flyabeech asked this question, as I've wondered the same myself. Hooks Airport (DWH) in Houston gets lots of transient military traffic; Navy/AF T-6s, AF T-1s, Army helicopters and C-12 King Airs, Navy T-34s, and it seems like darn near all of 'em do this. Crank 'em up and sit. And sit. And then sit some more. It seems like the Army C-12s are the worst... must have some fancy avionics that take awhile to spin up or just some really loooong checklists.

 

[HoursHore]

The Air force in all its wisdom doesn't use flows. What should take 5 minutes takes 20 as the students fumbles through mundane items and take forever.

As for the T-1, When we were on a Civilian ramp, from what I remember, we'd get in, Start engines using the battery as quickly as possible, turn on the Airconditioning, then go back and do the rest of the checklist.

Also , sometimes we'd have to wait for a time to hit the A/R track or low level route. But there is no reason that couldn't be done elsewhere on the ramp.

 

[tumbleweed]

Generally, most military ramps are setup so jet/prop blast and noise is not an issue. With this in mind...most mil pilots will make sure the aircraft is ready to fly before taxiing. So I assume that would also bleed over to ops at civilian fields, which usually aren't set up nearly as well. It always amuses me when the rampers park some light prop behind a couple jets there for a gas-n-go. What do they think is going to happen!

Back in my T-37 days we could taxi out fairly quick after engine start (<10 min). Only issue was we had to run one motor up above idle to get the other one started. And it was a noisy son of a biatch. Most guys would shut down the ramp side motor when taxiing in to mitigate that if possible. I would highly recommend NEVER parking behind an F-16 if you run across one on a ramp somewhere...your aircraft may make an unscheduled flight.

 

[iflyabeech]

ha i think the tweet is noisy even when its not running!

 

[propsarebest]

ha i think the tweet is noisy even when its not running!

That's why its called the great converter.

 

[Tweetdrvr]

Tumbleweed,

The T-6 takes longer to start and go than the Tweet, thanks to having a/c, some hot start issues with weak batteries, and having a GPS to play keeps most people from powering up the radios, getting a clearance and loading waypoints before cranking the engine. It is just too comfortable to be under the big glass canopy with an a/c unit that makes enough cold air to have a meat locker instead of sweating like the Tweet. Besides our idle fuel flow on the ground is only 170pph vice the almost 250 pph/per engine in the -37 where you were min fuel IFR emergency at engine start and had to do everything you could on the battery before start to save gas. Unfortunately this still wastes a lot of fuel. I ran the numbers based on the 6 nav sorties in the old syllabus and 1000 studs/year.If a student takes 5 mins off station to call Clearance Delivery, get it all straight and loaded into the GPS (most are slower, some with CFI/RJ backgrounds --i.e. ANG/RES SPs are faster, then figure out their taxi procedures, we waste about 85,000lbs of fuel per year building waypoints that could be done before start on the battery. If I have a strong battery, it isn't raining, it isn't over 90 degrees, or if a power cart is available, I always make them power up the avionics and get everything finished to include their taxi route diagrams, so that after engine start we just do the normal home station flaps, speed brake, turn stuff on checklists that only takes about 2 mins. I know it is a small drop in the bucket but I'd rather convert JP-8 to noise to move an aircraft than build waypoints and trying to get a student to understand that all the stuff the controller said before saying "then as filed" was a change and we are not cleared "as filed"

 

[iflyabeech]

ha, and then after entering all of the waypoints, as soon as you get into the air half of them change anyway!!! (or at least they do for me!)

 

[puck_11]

They're not Navy T-45 guys, no way IP's would tolerate slowness on the checklists. Besides on the road, we use cross country checklists and time between startup and taxi is very short. Occasionally it could be an issue with clearances. We park where the fuelers want us to park, which most of the time is our own little place on the ramp. Also, we don't move until we're ready to go.

 

[Gunfighter]

The Air force in all its wisdom doesn't use flows. What should take 5 minutes takes 20 as the students fumbles through mundane items and take forever.

It must be different in the heavies vs. the fighters. You've got to get your pre-flight flows down in the sims. It's not acceptable to fumble through anything once you get to the jet.

 

[tumbleweed]

Thanks for the T-6 info Tweetdvr...I left Vance before they switched and never got the opportunity to fly one. There is something to be said for the simple, but effective Tweet. Great for learning the basics of flight...although some more fuel efficient motors and better instruments would have been nice! Does the T-6 use any sort of DTC to store data?

In the Viper we generally start 45 min prior to t/o, so I hear you on the fuel wasted during ground ops. The GE burns about 1200pph at idle on the ground. That is the nature of the beast though when there are complex systems that need to warm-up and BIT. Especially when the whole point of the mission depends on them working properly.

 

[Gunfighter]

In the Viper we generally start 45 min prior to t/o,

45 seems a bit long, unless it's part of an LFE or long taxi and arming delays are expected. 10-15 minutes start to taxi, then another 15-20 for Taxi to T/O is what I typically see. Maybe I've gotten spoiled in the Guard.

 

[tumbleweed]

You're right Gunfighter...45 min is a bit on the long side. Suppose I'm getting too accustomed to the long ground ops here for combat sorties - ensuring we still meet a vul if we step to a spare. Looking forward to some nice A-A when we get home. More like 25 min start to t/o. Plus, you know AD is never going to be as efficient as the Guard...we have to build in the extra pain because we like it!!!

 

[Future SNA]

I did my solo X/C in the T-45 a whopping 100 miles over to Montgomery, AL. There was a couple Blackhawks with studs in them and an Air Force T-1. The T-1 was already running when I started walking to the jet...not yet dressed. I was taxiing and I hadn't even heard him call for taxi. WTF you're doing in there that takes so long is beyond me. The helo guys weren't much better. On the other hand, the T-45 never breaks and though I can "almost" get the Hornet started in the same amount of time, something always breaks so I'm inevitably idling for an hour

I like the attitude that IFLYABEECH had when coming and asking his question. That type of style will get you far in life and I'm sorry that honestly no one can quickly fix your problem. The fact of the matter is that from what I've seen, the heavy training birds ie T-1's, T-44's, TC-12's all take a frigain century to go anywhere and like was said before, adjusting where you park will fix your problem years before the military changes their standards on start-up checks. FYI, I always pulled away from everybody in the T-45 to load waypoints when I was too stupid to do them with the motors not running.

 

[Tweetdrvr]

Does the T-6 use any sort of DTC to store data?

The GPS is a basic GA KLN 900, so there is a data card and a FAIP is the POC for keeping them all up to date, it stores 25 flight plans, the top 3 (at DLF) are empty for off station use. So we have made MOA maps and pattern flightplans that can display on either the GPS screen and or the HSI moving map, which is great for orientation, and bad for the kid who gets one that is jacked up for their checkride because they don't look outside and know ground refs or center radial/pie in the sky as well as the old days.

There are GPS training units in most of the flightrooms for demonstration purposes, you could in theory put a card in there, build some plans, and then transfer the data at the jet, once you got the engine cranked. That would probably be useful for the first flight on Friday leaving home station, but without a way to update would not be much help on the road. We have enough trouble keeping up with keys to the airplanes, just like the O2 adaptors for the 37, I could not imagine how many guys would get in trouble for losing the card or not returning the data base to local configuration after landing from cross country.

1200pph at idle, if memory serves was not that the fuel flow for WAG low level gonkulations in the 37?