Quality of Regional Training

[Ty Webb]

Puh-lease.

Any of you 1900 fondlers that think that your initial qualification in a 121 jet is going to be easier than the 1900 are in for one hell of a surprise. . . . . That's all I'm gonna say about that.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Of all of the initials that i've done in a number of different jets, turboprops, etc... the HARDEST bar-none was the Jetstream 31.

No autopilot plus the darned thing was a wiggly pig. Any jet was a breeze after that.

 

[flatspin7]

Thats because the Jetscream is an evil SOB (Yes I have flown it)
You had to fly with one hand on the yoke and the other on the trim wheel---becuase there was no electric trim --
The ERJ is a complete joy in comparison. From what I have heard the 1900 is a sweetheart of an airplane.

 

[CapnVegetto]

Just FYI, Mesa has about a 50% fail rate for 1900 captains upgrading to CRJ captain, and from what I understand, it's because "they can't work the autopilot."

 

[kevdog]

Likewise just because it's hard doesn't mean it's good.

Hell, in college, the worse the teacher, the harder the class, cause they didn't teach you anything and you had to learn it on your own.

please, no offense, but can 1900 training be hard? sounds like previous 121 guys weren't pysched to be at GIA.

 

[Otto]

Props...not harder, just one more thing to break!

a 1900 CPT going to the CRJ would be a systems lesson rather than systems and re-learning how to fly an airplane again. Turbo props are a lot harder to fly than jets, especially without an autopilot to aid in those engine failures.

I've never flown the 1900 but based on my experience in the C-130, I wouldn't say props are "a lot harder" to fly than jets, however there's a little more tasking since you've got one more thing to monitor and one more thing that could go wrong. Yes, the herc is MUCH more difficult to handle then a CRJ with one engine shut down but I think this has more to due with the asymetric thrust versus the near centerline of the CRJ and I would think the same would be true with the 1900. As for the autopilot...we train to land the CRJ single engine by hand so there goes that arguement (though you are authorized to use the auto pilot in the real world).

 

[Crossky]

Someone who says flying a jet is harder than flying a 1900 obviously has never flown the 1900! Don't say things like this if you aren't even going to humor us to why you are right.

Ok, sure, why not? Being 'harder to fly', do you mean overall, or just hand flying? With or without flight director? With or without autopilot?

My experience:

hand flying w/no flight guidance, easiest to most difficult:
BE-1900, Do-328 prop, CRJ200, MD-80 (close between the jets though),

hand flying w/flight guidance: same

'autopilot engaged' flying: DO-328, CRJ200, BE-1900, MD-80. This would be after you have some time in the plane, are comfortable it in, and know flight guidance well. In initial qual autopilot planes will be tricky, especially if you have no experience in them, as I did. The 328 and CRJ200 have better autopilots, and even though they're more advanced and complicated, it makes them easier with experience. The others I had to monitor and finesse more and thus didn't trust as much.

On a Checkride you'll always be asked to fly with and without the autopilot/flight guidance. In a 1900 or metroliner without one, you've got less to know and use, for sure, but you have that much more time in training to learn how to hand fly it. If you want to talk about a T-prop which is hard to fly, ask about the metroliner, now it has a rep.

 

[DashCojones]

Mesa's training dept. ...

The DHC8 dept. is another matter. At least a 50% fail rate in it. And it's all due to a bunch of 'club' instructors. If they like you, you pass, if they don't you fail. I was never a student in that dept. but they shared a building with us, and some VERY GOOD people I know never made it through the ground school. .

That's the biggest load of bull$hit I've heard yet. Any moron with a little self-discipline can make it, especially through groundschool. (This is from one of the biggest morons out there..me). As far as the RECENTLY high fail rates, that was due to some of the WORST flying seen in the sim in a loong time (per one of the check airmen). Seems there was a lot of students assuming that tons of Beech time meant a skate through Dash training. Not so.

 

[Ty Webb]

please, no offense, but can 1900 training be hard? sounds like previous 121 guys weren't pysched to be at GIA.

Maybe they realized they'd be on overnights with . . . . the Russian!

Quick, get me three feet of hose, a funnel, and the liquor kit!



.

 

[Ralgha]

please, no offense, but can 1900 training be hard? sounds like previous 121 guys weren't pysched to be at GIA.

Dunno, never flown a 1900. I wasn't saying that is was hard.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Any of you 1900 fondlers that think that your initial qualification in a 121 jet is going to be easier than the 1900 are in for one hell of a surprise. . . . . That's all I'm gonna say about that.

You're going to have to say more, Ty, as I disagree. Aside from fighting with an autopilot that was counter-intuitive, my initial qualification in a 121 jet was easier than the 1900 I used to fondle.

Everyone I know (with whom I have discussed this issue) who moved on to any jet from any TP agrees... The jet (and by "the jet" I mean everything from an ERJ to a 747) is easier to fly and no harder to learn than the TP (and by TP I mean J-32, -41, 1900, Saab, Dash, ATR and Metro).

Not that any of these planes are "hard" to fly or learn, it's just shades of grey.

 

[ILSJUNKIE]

As far as regional training goes, i think that it is safe to say that Pinnacle takes the cake for the absolute worst training possible for a part 121 carrier. HANDS DOWN.

 

[white E]

Just FYI, Mesa has about a 50% fail rate for 1900 captains upgrading to CRJ captain, and from what I understand, it's because "they can't work the autopilot."

If you cannot operate an autopilot then you shouldn't be flying. Then again if you cannot operate an autopilot then you can't type or read or have any basic motor functions at all. How hard is it to press a button or two? Get over it. Flying a jet isn't that difficult....well depends on what you are doing with a jet. If you cannot fly the 1900 or an RJ then do something else. I don't want my family on your flight.
Tactical employment, however, is a different story.

 

[I.P. Freley]

If you cannot operate an autopilot then you shouldn't be flying. Then again if you cannot operate an autopilot then you can't type or read or have any basic motor functions at all. How hard is it to press a button or two?

Good answer. All autopilots are the same, and when you get used to an individual system, you are dead from the neck up if you have even a minimum of difficulty figuring out another one. In addition, if you can't press a button or two, you need to have the feeding tube removed. And good luck reading any manuals, or your living will, cuz you can't read, either.

Do you believe your own nonsense, white E? Just wondering... I used to think the A-10 was the coolest plane ever, but if they let YOU fly one... Oh, never mind. I can't read, so what's the point?

 

[kevdog]

To be fair, I have to say I have never flown a TP in an airline, so I have nothing to compare a ride to.

To me, the speed difference in a 1900 has to give you a huge advantage from a jet. Doing the carnarsie climb out of JFK with an engine fire must seem like a walk in the park in the 1900 compared to a fast jet with a flight guidance system.

btw, during my last ride in the 727 i was using the autopilot as much as possible and after about 10 mins the instructor failed it so I would have to hand fly the plane. It didn't make a difference.

 

[Dodge]

To me, the speed difference in a 1900 has to give you a huge advantage from a jet. Doing the carnarsie climb out of JFK with an engine fire must seem like a walk in the park in the 1900 compared to a fast jet with a flight guidance system.

The speed limit change below 10?

 

[kevdog]

The speed limit change below 10?

lol.

no, I didn't know the 1900 has ref speeds of 150 kts and climbs out at 250.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Comparing the Jetstream 31 to the Learjet 31:
You will be hard pressed to "blow through" an altitude you are climbing to in the Jetstream and have no worries about busting any of the airspace max speeds. In the Lear if you blink in the climb til about 20,000ft you just went through your altitude and departing class C or D the power needs to come back pretty quick to stay below 200kts especially when your level off altitude is only a couple thousand feet above the field.
I have found the Jetstream 31 harder to fly straight and level than the Lear 31. Especially when the yaw damp is inop (yes the Jetstreams I fly thankfully all have them installed... one even has an autopilot)
Automation in the Jetstream.....what automation even the pressurization and heating require attention. The Lear, well the FMS gives me something to look at while the autopilot clips along at FL450.
Now the one place I find noticeably easier is landing the Jetstream compared to the Lear. The Lear's controls are much less responsive at landing speeds and the winglets make crosswinds a bit more interesting. Plus if you find yourself fast or high in the Jetstream no prob those props near idle make great brakes. The Lear is not so easy to slow down. My landings in the Lear would probably be much better if I got to do more than a couple a month. The Jetstream is part luck. Sometimes they are great sometimes not.
An engine out on takeoff in the Lear is almost a non event compared to the Jetstream. Screw anything up in the Jetstream and you are probably dead.
Each plane has easier parts and harder parts when compared to the other. Overall I would say the Lear is easier to learn especially in the systems. (where the hell did the British learn their engineering? Hawker or Avro guys feel free to chime in about British jet designs)

As to part 121 training I'll have to get back to ya in a few months. But try learning your plane from 0 to checkride in 4 days each including systems (plus 5 days for company 135 indoc)

 

[fxbat]

"sprechen sie kein englisch?"

Your right drinking + typing = horse’s ass

1900 fo you rock.

 

[kevdog]

Ok I’ll bite

SABB auoto-coursen no prob. ATR auto-feather res. trq boost with type-4 no problem EMJ in to ORD on the speeds, make the turns, check the laso distance, get braking report, rvr and checklist at the speed of light (crap forgot the in-range and um’s with out an escort) $hit I think that heavy is going to clear in time.

If your worried about the Autopilot dude you’re screwed. Yes I miss the turbo prop and flying them in FL.

Is Gulf Stream hiring poor fo’s?

P.S. stomp on that rudder in a sweep wing jet like you would in a prop (it is the biggest control surface at v-2 and v-ref)You will do the nicest hard over (something similar to Greg leagues reverse pike, that split his head open 4 inches.)

SAY AGAIN!
sprechen sie kein englisch?