PSA ALPA vs US Airways ALPA

[FlyComAirJets]

TWADude, you should know better

Re: Remember USToo? Apparently you don't.

OK, let's play your short game of "What If?"

What If all the Mainline unions threw up their hands and gave up on the whole Scope thing and allowed Management to grow whatever SJ or LJ fleets they want, where they want it? Does anybody not doubt that Management would shift all flying to the regional/non-legacy carriers except for the long-haul stuff?

Let's modify your statement a bit, what if all the Mainline unions joined with the SJ operators via ALPA's established integration procedure? Wholly owneds at USAirways proposed it almost a decade ago with their USToo campaign, as in, 'we're USAir pilots TOO.' Instead, the USAir MEC coerced them to quietly shelve the idea. Case closed.

Half a decade later, the pilots at ASA and CMR made a similar proposal except this time they made sure it would see the light of day. First there was the PID itself, then there was the biennial Executive Board meetings in MIA, and then was the grand poobah himself, Chairman Duane.

All shot down ... along party lines, I might add.

The epitaph on this whole mess is that the USAirways MEC consistently imposed unilateral decisions on pilots they chose not to represent but to repress. Even the PSA pilots who got in bed with J4J in the first place are now being screwed. Despite the many opportunities to unite, the USAirways MEC instead chose a more insidious path with ALPA's blessings.

Look at their lineage, they have ALWAYS been a regional airline flying regional-type aircraft. It wasn't that long ago that they were flying what we call regional jets. Remember the BAC1-11 or the F-28? It hasn't been that long.

It is all so sad.

 

[BTDII]

it is U's flying so you guys are getting a free ride on the backs of the furloughed crowd

You should read the 8k's and 10k's and rethink this statement, cause guess what?!?! MAINLINE IS A WHOLLY-OWNED JUST LIKE ALG, PDT, AND PSA. Really, I'm not making it up. Its says it right there in black and white. So I quess its just as much our flying as it is yours.

The problem is that the Mainline is the only one who gets to negotiate with the people who run the Group. This is ALPA's downfall and why they can't fairly represent us all. The sense of entitlement from the Mainline is getting too much to stand.

And they still refuse to work with us to get all the flying back within the Group. When will you guys learn?

 

[Catbird]

Snorter- You need to get that upturned nose out of the exhaust stack. The lack of O2 is evident. You statement-

"in 2000? Mainline MEC wanted them at the W/O carriers, Wolf would have no part of it........that would mean he would have to buy them. But U needed them to compete so the MEC caved. "

Has some validity but you conveniently forgot as always one question. What did the MEC receive in return for "caving in"?

A little more pension, modified trip rig, or maybe a scope extension?

The superior pilots at U and National are Captains on the V1 rocket. Protecting the interest of mainline pilots, uh oh the engine has just quit. Lets hope Duane and your ex MECC is at the Palace in Herndon when the armada of V1's hit the ground. You made this bed, now your sleeping in the crap you crafted. All you need to do is ask for some help, most any pilot would toss a couple of gallons of 100LL on you to ease the pain.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Re: TWADude, you should know better

Look at their lineage, they have ALWAYS been a regional airline flying regional-type aircraft. It wasn't that long ago that they were flying what we call regional jets. Remember the BAC1-11 or the F-28? It hasn't been that long.

It is all so sad.

True, with one very important difference, Those Bac 1-11 and F-28 drivers were working for decent wages!

I am not talking about wide body rates but rates appropriate for the size A/C.

The F-28 2nd year Captain rates were 92.42, you guys are flying bigger airplanes second years for what $50...$55?

I am advocating a protection of this career as something that you would actually want to do. I can make 55 grand a year and not have to deal with PC's and Medicals and all the FAA crap and be home everynight with nothing but a high school diploma.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Has some validity but you conveniently forgot as always one question. What did the MEC receive in return for "caving in"?

A little more pension, modified trip rig, or maybe a scope extension?

I believe all they got out of that deal was a min block hour change for mainline (system total upped a bit) and a preferential hiring clause for the W/O pilots. Which is still in the contract if this hole ever hires again. It was 4 out of every ten hired had to be from the W/O's if I remember correct.

 

[Smoking Man]

KeroseneSnorter

I looked over my posts and cannot find where I said flying a 50 seater to ATL is a good idea.

As far as parking the 328 and a free ride on the back of the furloughed croud thing. It was your MEC that scoped yourself out of the RJ revolution, and negotiated a pay structure that was unsustainable for a large regional carrier that just goes over one pond. As far as PSA being outsourced, it ain't gonna happen, we will be sold long before that happens. If you are sharp enough then you might understand this and know where to go to look up the proper information. If GE pulls the $$ the amount of money U has to pay for cancellation of the RJ's is 90 million for the remainder of 2004 and 21 million for 2005. I'll give you a hint it is called a 10-Q form.

As for the MEC thing, this is how you (U ALPA) have viewed us at PSA, ALG and PDT for years, our union and us means nothing. The decision that you make for us is obviously the best and we should not get a say in it.

You think that mainline could survive without PSA, ALG, and PDT? You obviously have no clue. PSA makes as of (12/2003) fourteen million dollars a quarter for U. Those numbers were in the Dec DOT application for the 70 seaters. (note that was with 26 dorniers and 6 crj's) Currently have 26 crj's and 12 operational dorks. If you think that U does not need 155K a day income than I would hate to see your check book.

As for the Rj's and everyting on one list, for the first time I agree with you.

As far as Gimme, I have never used that in a post. If you don't like the 50/50 thing dosen't matter now (LOA 91), fly the 70's somewhere else. Mgt is the ones ordering the Crj 700's for PSA, not us.

I must admit the way you view the world is obtuse.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Re: KeroseneSnorter

I looked over my posts and cannot find where I said flying a 50 seater to ATL is a good idea.

As far as parking the 328 and a free ride on the back of the furloughed croud thing. It was your MEC that scoped yourself out of the RJ revolution, and negotiated a pay structure that was unsustainable for a large regional carrier that just goes over one pond. As far as PSA being outsourced, it ain't gonna happen, we will be sold long before that happens. If you are sharp enough then you might understand this and know where to go to look up the proper information. If GE pulls the $$ the amount of money U has to pay for cancellation of the RJ's is 90 million for the remainder of 2004 and 21 million for 2005. I'll give you a hint it is called a 10-Q form.


First off, when the RJ was emerging the U pilots held their line because the company was parking F-28's and furloughing pilots. So missing the rj "revolution" as you call it was a simple attempt to protect those jobs being lost. You at PSA would do no different then they did.

To the pay structure item. U pilots were forced (and yes I mean forced) into taking parity + 1% by Wolf. They did not want it, albiet for different reasons than Wolf wanted it. The end result is that United was ultimatly the one that negotiated the unsustainable pay scale. And that was the first thing to change when the contract was reopened prior to BK.

You do have a better chance at being sold than outsourced, but since the only obvious buyer would be Mesa, and I have seen their integration of senority lists from previous carriers sucked up by Johnny O and the PSA pilots would not fare well at all, So for all intents and purposes being sold or outsourced is the same thing, Just ask the CCAir boys.






As for the MEC thing, this is how you (U ALPA) have viewed us at PSA, ALG and PDT for years, our union and us means nothing. The decision that you make for us is obviously the best and we should not get a say in it.




On the contrary, the W/o pilots mean alot to us, especially the junior guys at U. That is why the junior guys pushed for the preferential hiring clause in the first RJ agreement, when it was clear that the RJ's were going to Mesa instead. But since the flying is U flying the W/O pilots do not have priority over the mainline when 70 seaters are replacing the F-100's and 73's. The RJ's should go to Mainline first, W/o second and just skip the contract carriers all together. Or all on one list.




You think that mainline could survive without PSA, ALG, and PDT? You obviously have no clue. PSA makes as of (12/2003) fourteen million dollars a quarter for U. Those numbers were in the Dec DOT application for the 70 seaters. (note that was with 26 dorniers and 6 crj's) Currently have 26 crj's and 12 operational dorks. If you think that U does not need 155K a day income than I would hate to see your check book.


The point I was making here is that PSA has zero market of their own. To the passenger, PSA is a now defunct airline from the west coast, if they remember it at all. All the flying that PSA performs could be done by U simply by pulling the 100's or 200's out of the desert. And when the RJ's are running somewhere around 15 to 20 mil a pop the 14 mil coming from PSA per quarter is not much. After all U is traditionally a regional carrier anyhow right?


As for the Rj's and everyting on one list, for the first time I agree with you.

As far as Gimme, I have never used that in a post. If you don't like the 50/50 thing dosen't matter now (LOA 91), fly the 70's somewhere else. Mgt is the ones ordering the Crj 700's for PSA, not us.


I have no problem with the 50/50 for the 50 seaters, just the larger ones. And you are correct MGT is ordering the 70 seaters not you, at the expense of the mainline pilot group. Anything over a one for one swap of 328's for RJ's to PSA is indeed on the backs of others, be it the mainline pilot or PDT or ALG. Nobody would have a problem with 1 to 1 for PSA, its when you are more than doubleing your size with 1879 guys on furlough, not including PDT and ALG, that is where the problems come in

I must admit the way you view the world is obtuse.

Actually the way I see the world is as my biatch!!!! After all I,m an evil mainline driver that is out to screw everyone right!!!!!!

 

[FlyComAirJets]

Nice try, Kerosene Breath

My current pay for the fifty seat small jet is $97.06 per hour.

Regulation is over, chief. Not bad for a fourth contract.

 

[Smoking Man]

KeroseneSnorter

When no one else held the line with F-28's going away, it quit being a line and was a point. All furloughed guys were recalled when you failed time and time again to grant relief on the total of 70 rj's U was allowed to operate.

So you tried to change the pay scale, it seemed to be at the to late point.

Mesa does not have the money to buy us. Think bigger.

Preferential hiring clause, WOW stop already with the generosity, now however you want 100% flowback with senority. Keep your peferential hiring clause.

Once again the only GE is paying for the RJ's the money does not come from U or can it be used for anything else. So the 14 million is profit, something that mainline can't seem to make.

All APL pilots have been contacted for FO positions at PSA and we are now hiring off of the street. Currently at ALG and PDT (Correct me if I am wrong) has no one on the street. Once again the 300+ pilots at PSA prior to RJ's are responsible for this of course.

I would not use the word evil. I prefer a more colorful metaphor.

 

[N93]

PSA never agreed to any staffing ratio of the 700 aircraft. U alpa and U mgt agreed with each other about staffing the aircraft at 100% apl pilots. To make it fair, PSA should get to staff an equal number of airbus at Mainline.

With skeezer on this, 50/50 or parkem.

When PSA transfers 32 seat tuboprop jobs to Mainline, they should give them a 50/50 cut.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Re: Nice try, Kerosene Breath

My current pay for the fifty seat small jet is $97.06 per hour.

Regulation is over, chief. Not bad for a fourth contract.

Lets see your what....20k hours TT, left seat....oh, maybe your 10 to 12 years senority with Comair or so????

97.06 isn't much for that long. I was talking 2nd year.

I believe PSA is 49 bucks and some change, And to be fair MAA is not any better.

You have been working for crap so long that they have you believing that you are paid well for your efforts......Sad.

A cross section of jobs and pay:


Bus driver with 10 years for mid sized city- 65 to 90 grand
Rail Road engineers- 80 to 100 K
RR conductors- 50 to 60 k
Beverage driver (small soft drink Co. Ie Cheerwine) 35 to 55 k
Beverage driver (large co. Ie. Coke) 45 to 75 k
Plant manager (for said small beverage co.) 65 K
Warehouse worker- 6 years- 45 k
UPS drivers- 70 k is common
Window installer- 10 years in- 65 k
Postman- 35 k to start (last I heard about 6 years ago.)
Circle K manager- 36 k to start (saw a sign last week)
Wal-mart Store manager- 100 K +bonuses (in a mid size market)


With the exception of the Wal-Mart guy, all these jobs can be had by your basic High School graduate that is not a total moron. Wal_mart requires College I believe.

Your average RJ driver....Right seat new hire = Food Stamps
But it requires college and a bunch of "paying your dues" (Ok Mav, stay out of this one!!!) Plus all the BS that goes with the job.


Edit: Actually FlyComair, I owe you an apology, your 96 an hour isn't much for the job done and the time put in but so far you guys are the only RJ operators out there that has had the gonads to try and do something about it!! That was one strike assessment that I did not mind paying.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Re: KeroseneSnorter

Mesa does not have the money to buy us. Think bigger.

Your kidding right?! Who are you hoping for, Southwest?

Johnny O is licking his chops over PSA and all those spiffy new jets.

 

[Catbird]

Wrong again Snorter- No preferential hiring, the wording concerning this postulation was, Preferential interview, which is quite a difference than your statement. U did hire some W/O pilots. 90% of the women and all of U siblings hopped over to U with daddies pat on the rump. Your hiring ratio is more BS. The numbers were finalized at 30% about 2 weeks before the interview window was concluded, after roughly 1000 pilots were hired to that point.

 

[Smoking Man]

Not SWA.

J O don't got the money, ACA take over attempt, Midway purchase with all the Bankruptcy things attached, then the RJ order for United flying.

His 100 million dollar bond cash in back in Feb, was just to cover day to day expense, until he gets his monthly checks from U, America West, and United.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Wrong again Snorter- No preferential hiring, the wording concerning this postulation was, Preferential interview, which is quite a difference than your statement. U did hire some W/O pilots. 90% of the women and all of U siblings hopped over to U with daddies pat on the rump. Your hiring ratio is more BS. The numbers were finalized at 30% about 2 weeks before the interview window was concluded, after roughly 1000 pilots were hired to that point.

Well I said it was from memory......and the United merger announcment shut down hiring.

But since the effort spent by the Junior pilots to try to get the W/O's a break was not appreciated, we will not bother next time, if there is one.

Personally I expect full liquidation of all U assets and termination of employees (Including the W/o's)

Unless Lakefield can pull a rabbit out of his rear this whole argument is moot.