Providing Training without a CFI?

[UndauntedFlyer]

UF, Why the questions.

Good question. The reason I'm asking these questions is because our local FSDO seems to think that any instruction provided by anyone with a CFI must be logged and they use the FAR as their reference. Personally I think a regulation requireing the logging of all training is intended for when that training is being used for qualification for a rating or a certificate. But, as I say, that's not what our FSDO thinks. So the reason for the questions is to get some views one way or the other on this.

Any comments or thoughts by anyone on this would be appreciated.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I can argue it both ways but in the end, as a CFI I would sign the students logbook. Keep in mind that todays G1000 was yesterdays ADF/LORAN/etc. - electronic navigation. So in keeping with navigational training, then if a CFI is indeed instructing on the usage of a G1000 it should be logged as such. But for one to learn the G1000 on their own may be sufficient. I realize that perhaps a checkout might be necessary if a pilot wants to check out for an IFR flight, but thats a whole different story.

I guess you feel that since a non-CFI can conduct instruction which need not be logged, then a CFI should be able to conduct the same training without providing the endorsement. This could be the case for almost anything. A proficicnet PP may show his non-pilot friend how to execute a stall recovery. Clearly, this can't be logged, but to think it doesnt occur is naive. Many pilot dads teach their son to fly a little even though they haven't an instructor rating.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I guess the root of the query is whether the CFI has an obligation to sign the logbook. If so, then I would say yes. The regs. require any instruction provided by the CFI to be recorded in the students logbook. As far as the CFI not having his certificate on him, well this sounds like an excuse to not sign the book. Normally, who knows if the CFI has his tickets with him for that matter. Is it the case that a CFI taught someone the usage of the G1000 and a SNAFU occured, where the lack of an endoresment presented a problem?

 

[MauleSkinner]

...as in, "I left my Flight Instructor Certificate at home, so technically I'm not a CFI right now. Therefore I can give you instruction in your Baron that doesn't have dual controls."?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I know of a local CFI who had his FAA certificates all revoked (Commercial and CFI). The FSDO said he can not teach in an airplane or a SIM or even ground school. This seems inconsistent with the example of a non-CFI or even a non-pilot who volunteers to teach another pilot something about whatever. After all, if a non pilot is telling someone about how to operate a G-1000 or even a mechanic (non-CFI or GI) teaching systems at Simuflight, what is the difference? (Many Simuflight & airline ground instructors have no FAA certificates) How is a pilot/CFI with revoked certificates any different than a non-pilot/CFI teaching systems at Simuflight? And what if a CFI is having lunch with another pilot and he says something about how to operate a G-1000 or how to recover from a stall, does that have to be logged? And if it's not logged, should that be violation? I would think not.


So does all training provided by a CFI really have to be logged as the FAR seems to say?

14CFR61.189(a) says, “A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.”

 

[AC560]

if a non pilot is telling someone about how to operate a G-1000 or even a mechanic (non-CFI or GI) teaching systems at Simuflight, what is the difference?

Those instructors are authorized by the FAA under part 142 to give instruction it is not an apples to oranges comparison.

Anyone can teach anyone for anything they want. Whether that instruction can be applied for the requirements of a certificate or rating is the difference.

If you want split hairs feel free but this is a pretty obtuse argument going on.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Those instructors are authorized by the FAA under part 142 to give instruction it is not an apples to oranges comparison.

Sometimes this is true, but not always. There is plenty of instruction that is given at Simuflight that is outside the Part 142 curriculum, by these instructors, none of whom are CFI's.

Anyone can teach anyone for anything they want. Whether that instruction can be applied for the requirements of a certificate or rating is the difference.

So you agree then that a CFI, or anyone for that matter, pilot or not, with a valid CFI or a revoked CFI certificaate, can provide flight and/or ground instruction and it need not be logged, assuming it will not be applied to meet a minimum training time requirement for a certificate or rating? And you seem to agree that as long as that training is not applied toward a certificate or rating, it need not be logged? Is that what you are saying?

14CFR61.189(a) says, “A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.”

If you want split hairs feel free but this is a pretty obtuse argument going on.

I agree, but that's always the case with a "Catch 22" discussion.

 

[bizicmo]

It seems to me there is a "Catch 22" here. You say,



But doesn't the FAR say any training provided by a CFI must me logged?

I see what you are saying. How about this. You can talk to another individual about anything you want, including flying. But then if you don't sign their logbook, then it is not flight instruction. So I am saying if giving flight instruction it does not require a logging, but if you don't log it, it must not be flight instruction. I guess there are two definitions of flight instruction.

 

[AC560]

I agree, but that's always the case with a "Catch 22" discussion.

The regs are pretty clear there is not Catch 22 or vagueness to them If I am Albert Einstein and I teach somebody how to use particle physics to calculate ground speed, clearly that is a form of instruction.

For the purposes of applying for a rating or certificate though the FAR's are clear on what it means by instruction and who is authorized to give it.

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing, I can't really believe you think that there isn't a clear difference between what a CFI is able to do and what a janitor is able to do in an airplane.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing, I can't really believe you think that there isn't a clear difference between what a CFI is able to do and what a janitor is able to do in an airplane.

So you seem to be of a contrary opinion, that being that a non-pilot/non-CFI (i.e. a janitor) can not give flight instruction, whereas only a person with a valid CFI can give instruction. If that is true, should the FAA investigate the janitor who is teaching someone how to use their G-1000 (assuming he know how to use it).

So what is the opinion of whether or not a person with revoked pilot/CFI certificates can give flight and ground instruction?