Providing Training without a CFI?

[AC560]

if a non pilot is telling someone about how to operate a G-1000 or even a mechanic (non-CFI or GI) teaching systems at Simuflight, what is the difference?

Those instructors are authorized by the FAA under part 142 to give instruction it is not an apples to oranges comparison.

Anyone can teach anyone for anything they want. Whether that instruction can be applied for the requirements of a certificate or rating is the difference.

If you want split hairs feel free but this is a pretty obtuse argument going on.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Those instructors are authorized by the FAA under part 142 to give instruction it is not an apples to oranges comparison.

Sometimes this is true, but not always. There is plenty of instruction that is given at Simuflight that is outside the Part 142 curriculum, by these instructors, none of whom are CFI's.

Anyone can teach anyone for anything they want. Whether that instruction can be applied for the requirements of a certificate or rating is the difference.

So you agree then that a CFI, or anyone for that matter, pilot or not, with a valid CFI or a revoked CFI certificaate, can provide flight and/or ground instruction and it need not be logged, assuming it will not be applied to meet a minimum training time requirement for a certificate or rating? And you seem to agree that as long as that training is not applied toward a certificate or rating, it need not be logged? Is that what you are saying?

14CFR61.189(a) says, “A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.”

If you want split hairs feel free but this is a pretty obtuse argument going on.

I agree, but that's always the case with a "Catch 22" discussion.

 

[bizicmo]

It seems to me there is a "Catch 22" here. You say,



But doesn't the FAR say any training provided by a CFI must me logged?

I see what you are saying. How about this. You can talk to another individual about anything you want, including flying. But then if you don't sign their logbook, then it is not flight instruction. So I am saying if giving flight instruction it does not require a logging, but if you don't log it, it must not be flight instruction. I guess there are two definitions of flight instruction.

 

[AC560]

I agree, but that's always the case with a "Catch 22" discussion.

The regs are pretty clear there is not Catch 22 or vagueness to them If I am Albert Einstein and I teach somebody how to use particle physics to calculate ground speed, clearly that is a form of instruction.

For the purposes of applying for a rating or certificate though the FAR's are clear on what it means by instruction and who is authorized to give it.

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing, I can't really believe you think that there isn't a clear difference between what a CFI is able to do and what a janitor is able to do in an airplane.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing, I can't really believe you think that there isn't a clear difference between what a CFI is able to do and what a janitor is able to do in an airplane.

So you seem to be of a contrary opinion, that being that a non-pilot/non-CFI (i.e. a janitor) can not give flight instruction, whereas only a person with a valid CFI can give instruction. If that is true, should the FAA investigate the janitor who is teaching someone how to use their G-1000 (assuming he know how to use it).

So what is the opinion of whether or not a person with revoked pilot/CFI certificates can give flight and ground instruction?

 

[AC560]

So you seem to be of a contrary opinion, that being that non-pilot/non-CFI (i.e. a janitor) can not give flight instruction,

A non-pilot / non-CFI cannot give flight instruction which can be used for the application towards a certificate or rating (barring some special FAA circumstances).

whereas only a person with a valid CFI can give instruction.

Can only give instruction for the issuance of a certificate or rating as the privileges of their instructor certificate allow.

If that is true, should the FAA investigate the janitor who is teaching someone how to use their G-1000 (assuming he know how to use it).

About the only power the FAA has is to revoke somebody's certificates/ratings. If a janitor is teaching somebody how to use their G-1000 and that upsets the FAA, not much the FAA can do given the janitor has no certificates or ratings.

So what is the opinion of whether or not a person with revoked pilot/CFI certificates can give flight and ground instruction?

Again anyone can do anything they want. It is a very regular/common occurrence for non-CFI's to help out students (I believe it is called a mentor). The time spent with said mentor while valuable does not however count for the application of a certificate or rating.

You need a CFI to get to signed to take the PTS
You need somebody who knows what they are doing to get you to pass the PTS

Two very different things.

 

[spitfire1500]

When I was at a certain flight school in Fla getting my CFI (many moons ago) they had a Frasca sim it was free to practice on and about $50 an hour with a school instructor that could sign you off for IFR training toward your IFR rating....well we were told by a fed that with an IGI you could sign off instrument time...so needless to say a few of us had IGI's and were signing each others Frasca time for beers. Still to this day I wonder if an IGI could sign a logbook for sim hours, it seemed kind of a grey area to me....but hey a few beers vs. $50 an hour...

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

When I was at a certain flight school in Fla getting my CFI (many moons ago) they had a Frasca sim it was free to practice on and about $50 an hour with a school instructor that could sign you off for IFR training toward your IFR rating....well we were told by a fed that with an IGI you could sign off instrument time...so needless to say a few of us had IGI's and were signing each others Frasca time for beers. Still to this day I wonder if an IGI could sign a logbook for sim hours, it seemed kind of a grey area to me....but hey a few beers vs. $50 an hour...

The Fed was correct, an IGI can sign off sim-time.

 

[nosehair]

check this

The reason I'm asking these questions is because our local FSDO seems to think that any instruction provided by anyone with a CFI must be logged and they use the FAR as their reference. Yeah, they have to. They're the Government. What? Personally I think a regulation requireing the logging of all training is intended for when that training is being used for qualification for a rating or a certificate. Yeah, and I personally would prefer that PIC time is actually acting as PIC, or that flight crew hours were...well, you get my drift.But, as I say, that's not what our FSDO thinks.They, like us, are restricted to what the regulations says pretty much in black-and-white. So the reason for the questions is to get some views one way or the other on this.What for? Really, why. Won't do no good, it is a regulation. You gonna go to Congress for a rule change on this? Nobody up there even cares about the PIC time issue or a thousand other 'non-safety related' issues.