Providing Training without a CFI?

[UndauntedFlyer]

Any thoughts on what type of training a person can provide who has no CFI certificate?

Can a person with no CFI teach an instrument student instrument holds/approaches and teach that person how to use their G1000? Can a non-CFI teach a person spins and/or acro? Can a non-CFI prepare a person for an FAA Commercial Pilot practical test, assuming someone else signs that person off and provides the required trainng? In other words, does a person need to hold a valid CFI certificate in order to provide flight instruction? Does such a person even need to hold any type of valid pilot certificate?

Also, if a flight instructor leaves his CFI certificate at home, can that person still provide instruction but just not sign it off? And even if a CFI has his certificate in his possesion, can flight or ground instruction be provided that is not signed off?

Can a 14-year old provide ground instruction to others on subjects such as how to operate their G-1000?

Your thoughts and comments would be apprecaited.

 

[bizicmo]

Anybody can teach anybody anything. I could teach you open heart surgery. I have no medical background and no formal training, but I have stayed at a holiday inn express.

 

[FlyinFife]

Sure, but why would you want to accept "training" from someone who is not a CFI?

It goes without saying that this "training" time by a non-cfi would not count as flight instruction of any type. On the surface, it would be nothing more than one pilot showing another pilot a tip or trick.

On the other hand, if a non-CFI is providing "real" flight instruction, I would imagine that would be a huge liability issue.

What is the motivation for this question?

Can you ride along with an instrument-rated pilot friend and have him show you how to fly approaches or enter holds? Absolutely. This is not "flight instruction", per se, but you are certainly learning something and I am sure your pilot-friend is explaining to you how to do it while it is happening.

 

[340drvr]

Aerobatics training is another area that doesn't "require" a CFI, aerobatics needs no rating, no logbook endorsement, no minimum times required by FAA. Liability and insurance may be a different story.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

If the operative word is "can," then yes, someone without these certificates "can" teach someone all of the above without the pertinent CFI certificate.

One instance might be an indivdual who had all of his CFI certificates freshly revoked. j/k

Seriously though, many with a CFI certificate "can't" teach any of the above. If you're refering to ones ability which the word "can" denotes, then we're looking at an individuals knowledge, skill and ability to convey these elements. There are plenty of pilots who can without an instructor certificate. It's entirely feasible to have a non-CFI teach you how to operate an airplane in it's varying aspects. To legally log and become certified is another story of course.

 

[rumpletumbler]

Part 61.213

(a) To be eligible for a ground instructor certificate or rating a person must:

(1) Be at least 18 years of age;

(2) Be able to read, write, speak, and understand the English language. If the applicant is unable to meet one of these requirements due to medical reasons, then the Administrator may place such operating limitations on that applicant's ground instructor certificate as are necessary;

(3) Except as provided in paragraph (b) of this section, pass a knowledge test on the fundamentals of instructing to include—

(i) The learning process;

(ii) Elements of effective teaching;

(iii) Student evaluation and testing;

(iv) Course development;

(v) Lesson planning; and

(vi) Classroom training techniques.

(4) Pass a knowledge test on the aeronautical knowledge areas in—

(i) For a basic ground instructor rating §§61.97, 61.105, and 61.309;

(ii) For an advanced ground instructor rating §§61.97, 61.105, 61.125, 61.155, and 61.309; and

(iii) For an instrument ground instructor rating, §61.65.

(b) The knowledge test specified in paragraph (a)(3) of this section is not required if the applicant:

(1) Holds a ground instructor certificate or flight instructor certificate issued under this part;

(2) Holds a current teacher's certificate issued by a State, county, city, or municipality that authorizes the person to teach at an educational level of the 7th grade or higher; or

(3) Is employed as a teacher at an accredited college or university.

(a) A person who holds a basic ground instructor rating is authorized to provide—

(1) Ground training in the aeronautical knowledge areas required for the issuance of a sport pilot certificate, recreational pilot certificate, private pilot certificate, or associated ratings under this part;

(2) Ground training required for a sport pilot, recreational pilot, and private pilot flight review; and

(3) A recommendation for a knowledge test required for the issuance of a sport pilot certificate, recreational pilot certificate, or private pilot certificate under this part.

(b) A person who holds an advanced ground instructor rating is authorized to provide:

(1) Ground training in the aeronautical knowledge areas required for the issuance of any certificate or rating under this part;

(2) Ground training required for any flight review; and

(3) A recommendation for a knowledge test required for the issuance of any certificate under this part.

(c) A person who holds an instrument ground instructor rating is authorized to provide:

(1) Ground training in the aeronautical knowledge areas required for the issuance of an instrument rating under this part;

(2) Ground training required for an instrument proficiency check; and

(3) A recommendation for a knowledge test required for the issuance of an instrument rating under this part.

(d) A person who holds a ground instructor certificate is authorized, within the limitations of the ratings on the ground instructor certificate, to endorse the logbook or other training record of a person to whom the holder has provided the training or recommendation specified in paragraphs (a) through (c) of this section.

The holder of a ground instructor certificate may not perform the duties of a ground instructor unless, within the preceding 12 months:

(a) The person has served for at least 3 months as a ground instructor; or

(b) The person has received an endorsement from an authorized ground or flight instructor certifying that the person has demonstrated safisfactory proficiency in the subject areas prescribed in §61.213 (a)(3) and (a)(4), as applicable.


Part 61

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

14CFR61.189(a) says, “A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.”

So if you're not a CFI and you go out and help someone learn to use their G1000 by providing 2-hours of ground training over lunch and then provide 2-hours of flight training on how to use that unit, it seems that a non CFI doesn’t need to sign anything but a CFI must sign-off the training as a log entry in the pilot’s log book or training record?


So if you have no CFI certificate and you provide training that doesn’t have to be logged; whereas, if you are the holder of a valid CFI certificate you must log that time it seems?

And what if you are a CFI and you provide that type of training but you forget your CFI certificate and leave it at home. Does that change anything?

 

[bizicmo]

If you provide training and don't have a CFI it can't be logged. If you provide training and have a CFI it doesn't have to be logged, but why would someone pay for training that couldn't be logged.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

If you provide training and don't have a CFI it can't be logged. If you provide training and have a CFI it doesn't have to be logged, but why would someone pay for training that couldn't be logged.

It seems to me there is a "Catch 22" here. You say,

If you provide training and have a CFI it doesn't have to be logged

But doesn't the FAR say any training provided by a CFI must me logged?

14CFR61.189(a) says, “A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.”

 

[Amish RakeFight]

UF,

You're a DPE, aren't you? Why the questions.

The CFI I would imagine is at liberty to sign the logbook stating instruction received in your scenario. Althoguh pilots teach other pilots things all the time without any evidence of it in a logbook. Pilots can just the same purchase a G1000 CD-ROM and learn the operation of it on their home PC.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

UF, Why the questions.

Good question. The reason I'm asking these questions is because our local FSDO seems to think that any instruction provided by anyone with a CFI must be logged and they use the FAR as their reference. Personally I think a regulation requireing the logging of all training is intended for when that training is being used for qualification for a rating or a certificate. But, as I say, that's not what our FSDO thinks. So the reason for the questions is to get some views one way or the other on this.

Any comments or thoughts by anyone on this would be appreciated.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I can argue it both ways but in the end, as a CFI I would sign the students logbook. Keep in mind that todays G1000 was yesterdays ADF/LORAN/etc. - electronic navigation. So in keeping with navigational training, then if a CFI is indeed instructing on the usage of a G1000 it should be logged as such. But for one to learn the G1000 on their own may be sufficient. I realize that perhaps a checkout might be necessary if a pilot wants to check out for an IFR flight, but thats a whole different story.

I guess you feel that since a non-CFI can conduct instruction which need not be logged, then a CFI should be able to conduct the same training without providing the endorsement. This could be the case for almost anything. A proficicnet PP may show his non-pilot friend how to execute a stall recovery. Clearly, this can't be logged, but to think it doesnt occur is naive. Many pilot dads teach their son to fly a little even though they haven't an instructor rating.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

I guess the root of the query is whether the CFI has an obligation to sign the logbook. If so, then I would say yes. The regs. require any instruction provided by the CFI to be recorded in the students logbook. As far as the CFI not having his certificate on him, well this sounds like an excuse to not sign the book. Normally, who knows if the CFI has his tickets with him for that matter. Is it the case that a CFI taught someone the usage of the G1000 and a SNAFU occured, where the lack of an endoresment presented a problem?

 

[MauleSkinner]

...as in, "I left my Flight Instructor Certificate at home, so technically I'm not a CFI right now. Therefore I can give you instruction in your Baron that doesn't have dual controls."?

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

I know of a local CFI who had his FAA certificates all revoked (Commercial and CFI). The FSDO said he can not teach in an airplane or a SIM or even ground school. This seems inconsistent with the example of a non-CFI or even a non-pilot who volunteers to teach another pilot something about whatever. After all, if a non pilot is telling someone about how to operate a G-1000 or even a mechanic (non-CFI or GI) teaching systems at Simuflight, what is the difference? (Many Simuflight & airline ground instructors have no FAA certificates) How is a pilot/CFI with revoked certificates any different than a non-pilot/CFI teaching systems at Simuflight? And what if a CFI is having lunch with another pilot and he says something about how to operate a G-1000 or how to recover from a stall, does that have to be logged? And if it's not logged, should that be violation? I would think not.


So does all training provided by a CFI really have to be logged as the FAR seems to say?

14CFR61.189(a) says, “A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.”

 

[AC560]

if a non pilot is telling someone about how to operate a G-1000 or even a mechanic (non-CFI or GI) teaching systems at Simuflight, what is the difference?

Those instructors are authorized by the FAA under part 142 to give instruction it is not an apples to oranges comparison.

Anyone can teach anyone for anything they want. Whether that instruction can be applied for the requirements of a certificate or rating is the difference.

If you want split hairs feel free but this is a pretty obtuse argument going on.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Those instructors are authorized by the FAA under part 142 to give instruction it is not an apples to oranges comparison.

Sometimes this is true, but not always. There is plenty of instruction that is given at Simuflight that is outside the Part 142 curriculum, by these instructors, none of whom are CFI's.

Anyone can teach anyone for anything they want. Whether that instruction can be applied for the requirements of a certificate or rating is the difference.

So you agree then that a CFI, or anyone for that matter, pilot or not, with a valid CFI or a revoked CFI certificaate, can provide flight and/or ground instruction and it need not be logged, assuming it will not be applied to meet a minimum training time requirement for a certificate or rating? And you seem to agree that as long as that training is not applied toward a certificate or rating, it need not be logged? Is that what you are saying?

14CFR61.189(a) says, “A flight instructor must sign the logbook of each person to whom that instructor has given flight training or ground training.”

If you want split hairs feel free but this is a pretty obtuse argument going on.

I agree, but that's always the case with a "Catch 22" discussion.

 

[bizicmo]

It seems to me there is a "Catch 22" here. You say,



But doesn't the FAR say any training provided by a CFI must me logged?

I see what you are saying. How about this. You can talk to another individual about anything you want, including flying. But then if you don't sign their logbook, then it is not flight instruction. So I am saying if giving flight instruction it does not require a logging, but if you don't log it, it must not be flight instruction. I guess there are two definitions of flight instruction.

 

[AC560]

I agree, but that's always the case with a "Catch 22" discussion.

The regs are pretty clear there is not Catch 22 or vagueness to them If I am Albert Einstein and I teach somebody how to use particle physics to calculate ground speed, clearly that is a form of instruction.

For the purposes of applying for a rating or certificate though the FAR's are clear on what it means by instruction and who is authorized to give it.

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing, I can't really believe you think that there isn't a clear difference between what a CFI is able to do and what a janitor is able to do in an airplane.

 

[UndauntedFlyer]

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing, I can't really believe you think that there isn't a clear difference between what a CFI is able to do and what a janitor is able to do in an airplane.

So you seem to be of a contrary opinion, that being that a non-pilot/non-CFI (i.e. a janitor) can not give flight instruction, whereas only a person with a valid CFI can give instruction. If that is true, should the FAA investigate the janitor who is teaching someone how to use their G-1000 (assuming he know how to use it).

So what is the opinion of whether or not a person with revoked pilot/CFI certificates can give flight and ground instruction?