Pro's & con's of a union

[Jeepman]

I was just wondering what the pro's & cons were of having a union. ALPA (for a regional) vs. certifying an in house union? What changes (good & bad) happened after your airline got a union? I am asking because there appears to be a big push to certify an in-house SkyWest union & I am not convinced it's the best thing.

Please don't post anything if your just going to bash SkyWest for not having a union.

 

[Beechnut]

A benefit of having large union support is resources. Say what you will about ALPA National, but ALPA National helped AirWis ALPA with money, lawyers, and other forms of support. This isn't to say that an in house can't do that, only that that ALPA National does. How strong your actual company union is (ALPA or not) depends on the pilots AT the company, NOT the National resource that shares the same name. For example, compare the results of AirWis ALPA with Pinnacle ALPA.

Good Luck!

S.

 

[skypine69]

Jeepman,

Some info for you to consider. At Skywest we are what is known as at will employees. This means that if management wakes up tomorrow and decides that he doesn't like the way you are wearing your tie they can terminate you. Is this likely to happen? NO. It also means that if a hotel clerk or gate agent tells manangement a story about you that is less than flattering they can fire you. Is this likely to happen? It has happened on more than one occasion. Has the pilot got their job back? Generally, yes. Trouble is that pilot has to hire an attourney out of his own pocket and go thru the stress of not knowing of he will be able to pay for it or not. SAPA can and will help as much as they can, however, when you go into a meeting with the chief pilot, the first thing they tell you is that they are not attourneys and they are there to observe. Personally I want someone firmly planted in my corner!
A union will not protect against bad business descions made by management, or descions made by the major partners. A union is there to help protect your ticket and job from mistakes made by management (intentionally or otherwise). The best way to put it is that it is an insurance policy for your ticket. You put in a little every paycheck and if you should ever need the help you recieve the full support of the union. Hopefully you never need the help.
I firmly beleive that had a union been on the property in the past couple of years, some of the discipline actions that have occured against pilots would have either not taken place, or not gone as far as they did.

An emtional issue to be sure! If you have other QQQs please let me know here or by PM.
PS. Spelling not my fault...

 

[skypine69]

Personally I do want ALPA. money talks and bullsh1t walks I always say! However with the recent fighting or perceived fighting among regionals and majors the vast majority of our pilot group is turned off by ALPA. So....the next choice is haveing something rather than nothing. Utah, where Skywest is based is a right to work state, which means the opposite of the way it sounds....basically workers have very few rights with a legal contract in place.

 

[Kingairrick]

ALPA lawsuit

I am interested in finding out what line pilots think about the lawsuit filed by Capt. Ford at Comair. I am writing a paper on the subject for a class at Riddle. I don't want to hijack the thread, but it seems relevant to jeepman's question.

Personally, I think that the (new?) economics of airline management may dictate that regional pilots have different best interests that mainline pilots. That would imply a conflict of interest on the part of ALPA.

Like jeepman, I'm not interested in bashing or argumentative posts, just honest opinion.

Thanks.

 

[skydiverdriver]

You can find out a LOT about what pilots feel about Capt Ford's lawsuit by doing a search on the rjdc on this board. I personally think that ALPA will do the right thing, but it may take some time before they do.

As for the union thing, I have personally flown at airlines that were non-union, and ones that had ALPA. I much prefer having a union, for a number of reasons. I also personally hope Skywest pilots join ALPA so we can start working together on the problems we have in common. Hope this helps you.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

Pilots have a duty to belong to a professional organization that represents their interests in Washington. Wonder why we don't have cameras in cockpits? Why FOX News isn't allowed to air CVR tapes on the Bill O'Reilly show? Why employers can't make up nasty lies about your employment history on a background check? Why your company can't force you to work over 16 hours?
You have ALPA (and to a lesser extent the APA) to thank for all this.

Not to mention the insurance policy of having someone fight for your rights when up against an pilot-pushing manager or a violation-happy Fed.

With a few exceptions, unions are absolutely indespensible for airline pilots.

 

[Draginass]

If you're in the airline industry and not unionized, you're crazy.

JetBlue isn't unionized, but it's a new company and the management seems to be trying to treat the employees well enough that they don't feel the need to . . . . . but I predict in a few years they'll feel differently.

 

[Jetsnake]

ALPA for the SJ's as we are called
S)cks.
ALPA for the RJ's as we used to be
called S)cks.

ALPA is, and will continue to be a
punch line for the regional carrier
until all regional's unite together.

Regional meaning RJ's of course.
Those little planes that make money
for the mother ship. And get those
Main Line pilots home from time to
time.

It is fricken amazing how the big brother
is treating the little guy today.

Everyone should do a bit of research,
check into Air Wisconsin Airlines background,
See what the UAL pilot group (ALPA) did back in 1991
when UAL bought out AWAC.

Eveyone seems to think this is a new thing
in which pilots are getting crap from there
Mother Ship.

I went to work for Air Wisconsin for one reason.
Stability.
If the owners make money.
I have a job.
I wish the owners of this privately held company
the best.
I hope they make a ZILLION dollars...

Jetsnake

 

[Publishers]

bad times

Unions tend to be a good thing in good times and a bad thing in bad times. Why????

Because they are effective in negotiating for large groups and taking full benefit during the good times.

On the other hand, during bad times, the very things that they accomplished in the good times tend to come back and bite many of their members. They create a structure that cannot respond to new situations in a timely manner. The problem is that they are trying to establish an industry wide practice and may not be able to address the individual company problems.

 

[DarnNearaJet]

I am a regional/express pilot. I don't blame ALPA for where I am in life. I blame the economy. I had hoped I'd be at a major by now. I just can't fathom why so many regional pilots harbor animosity towards their union.

They would be a hell of a lot worse off without ALPA. Just like the bigger airlines -- union companies treat their employees much better than non-union companies.

To blame ALPA for regional pay/work rules is truly biting the hand that feeds you. You get what you negotiate.

 

[Andy Neill]

I'll go with when you say that Mesa, TSA, and the like are better with a union than without. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say they are better off there than at SkyWest.

 

[DC8Driver]

Ask any Ex-Emery pilot what he or she thinks of ALPA.

They take your money and drop you as soon as you can't pay dues anymore.

If you are not working for a major and your paying ALPa dues, your being robbed.

If you are a member of ALPA, please vote Duane Worthless out asap.

 

[Rvrrat]

variable weight gorrilla

Ironic turn of history.

Over time the unions have become the variable weight gorrilla which they were originally formed to counteract.

 

[surplus1]

I was just wondering what the pro's & cons were of having a union. ALPA (for a regional) vs. certifying an in house union?

You are really asking two questions here. The pros and cons of having "a union" are not the same as the pros and cons of ALPA vs Independent Union.

On having a union vs no union.

Pros = Union.

1. A certified union establishes legal rights for the employees and the Company.

2. Guarantees that the Company is required to bargain with the employees (union) for wages, working conditions and other rights. Establishes rules of how and when this must be done .

3. Provides a legally binding (on both parties) contract.

4. Establishes a grievance procedure, thereby changing the "at will" status of the employee. (Bypasses the detrimental side of a "right to worK" State ... like Utah, in that Federal law takes precedent)

5. Mandates the right of "representation" of the employee in all disputes with management.

Cons = no union

1. Employees have no legal, enforceable rights other than those provided by State Law. (In "right to work" States, this is usually zero).

2. The Company is not required by law to bargain with any group or individual over anything. Management retains ALL rights.

3. Contracts/agreements are NOT legally binding. May be changed or eliminated by the Company, unilaterally, at any time.

4. There is no legally binding grievance procedure. Employees are "employees at will" and may be disciplined or terminated at any time, with or without cause.

5. Employee has no legal right to representation in disputes with management.

6. Seniority system, if any, is not legally enforceable.

7. May create adversarial relationship and confrontation if management resists.


ALPA vs Independent Union

Pros = ALPA

1. Well established and adequately funded on the National level.

2. Most experienced in issues specific to pilots.

3. Very good in promoting safety related issues and ensuring good safety practices.

4. Excellent aeromedical facility. Most knowledgable in pilot related medical issues. Can prevent loss of medical in most cases.

5. Excellent political connections, particularly with National Mediation Board and also in Congress.

6. Strong support mechanisms, e.g., financial analysis, legal department (grievances - FAA issues), safety staff, representation department, contract administration. These are often referred to as "resources".

Cons = ALPA

1. Expensive dues structure. Small carriers not always adequately funded.

2. Extensive internal conflicts of interest between regional/major airlines. Favors major airlines.

3. "Resources" often used against you, rather than for you. Particularly if you are a small carrier.

4. Small carriers are actively "controlled" by the National union. Critical decisions often made by "others" not employed by your airline.

5. Very political. Small carriers have no political clout and can be outvoted on every issue. Totally dominated by major airlines.

6. Political influence and agenda often advances causes of major carriers regardless of impact on small carriers.

7. Foused on general interests as opposed to carrier specific interests.

Pros = Independent Union.

1. Focuses primarily on interests of the represented group. No conflict of interest. Very little external influence.

2. Provides the same legal rights of representation and bargaining afforded by a National union, without the burden of representing other entities or interests. Independent.

3. Dues structure can be less expensive. No dues used to support national structure or agendas of others.

4. Attorneys have only one client (no conflicts of interest). Your lawyers represent only your interests and you control them.

5. Can gain National clout by affiliation with Coalition of Airline Pilot Associations, without losing independence.

6. Can purchase many of the support requirements from other entities at reasonable cost.

7. Usually less adversarial (with/to management) due to absence of external agenda.

Cons = Independent Union

1. Generally lacks expertise and experience (unless knowledgable leaders available on the property.)

2. Finances limited to resources of the particular group. The smaller, the more difficult.

3. No or very little political influence.

4. Lacks in house support mechanisms such as those provided by a large union (ALPA).

5. Lacks meaningful recognition from large government organizations like NMB, FAA, until well established (or affiliated with CAPA).

Please note that all of these pros and cons are my personal opinions. Others may see things differently.

There are many successful Independent unions. Among them are the Allied Pilots Association (APA - American), SWAPA - SouthWest Pilots Association, IPA (Independent Pilots Association) representing UPS pilots, NPA (National Pilots Association) representing Air Tran pilots.

Until recently the IACP (CAL & CALEX) and the FPA (FedX) were also independent but merged with ALPA. The Teamsters also have an airline division, that currently represents Horizon, Airborne, Chautaqua, and other pilot groups (some of which are not airlines).

 

[Publishers]

post

Excellent post Surplus as to the good and the bad.

I think in the case of the current situation it is easy to see what happens in a downturn. Here the independant union has an advantage with the no national ajenda and focus on a particular company

 

[RocketRob]

Comparing in house unions to ALPA is a no brainer. We (CAL&XJET) used to have the IACP and are now ALPA. The IACP was ok and better than no union but they couldn't come close the the resources that ALPA has provided. We are now in negotiations and hope to make everyone proud (except management of course ) and I've been told over and over by our higher up's about how much better everything is for our negotaitors. They have top-notch lawyer's, benefits/retirement specialists, and medical help. Also ALPA Policical Action Commitee has worked hard to fight for all airline pilots in D.C.

 

[Slim]

If you are to form an independent union, consider the start up costs.

I have posted on this several times. If a pilot group decides to start their own independent union, they need to consider the cost of starting up, then the monthly costs of running same.

I believe Comair would need a group of 3,000-3,500 pilots to make an independent union viable. That can't happen today. If Comair and ASA joined together today, an independent union may be viable.

I am a current member of ALPA and a former member of an independent union.

Good luck and fly safe!

 

[surplus1]

If you are to form an independent union, consider the start up costs.

I have posted on this several times. If a pilot group decides to start their own independent union, they need to consider the cost of starting up, then the monthly costs of running same.

I believe Comair would need a group of 3,000-3,500 pilots to make an independent union viable. That can't happen today. If Comair and ASA joined together today, an independent union may be viable.

I am a current member of ALPA and a former member of an independent union.

Good luck and fly safe!

I agree that startup costs are an important consideration. I disagree strongly that Comair or any other group would need 3,000 pilots or more to make an independent union viable.

SWAPA, IPA and NPA (as well as others) were all started with far less than 3,000 members and have been quite successful.

What is required is strong and capable leaders and a united group of pilots. There is some number of minimum members that equates to adequate funding, but it is far less than 3,000. Keep in mind that the cost structure of an ALPA does not have to be emulated for success.

The current dues of CMR pilots, if allocated 100% to running a CMR specific union, are more than adequate.

Please don't misunderstand, I am NOT advocating an independent union for Comair (at this time), I'm only saying that it would definitely be viable from a financial point of view.

In my opinion, the key ingredient is qualified leadership and motivation of the group, not money.

 

[Slim]

I'm not advocating a split from ALPA at this time!

The numbers I used were supplied by our former MEC chairman in early 1998. I attempted to adjust for (1) inflation, (2) the payscale then vs. the payscale now, and (3) the number of pilots at Comair and ASA.

I agree with your observation concerning motivated and qualified leadership. That's essential, along with the money.

SWAPA and IPA are not fair comparisons. They fly larger equipment with higher rates of pay. Thus, the dues percentage they pay monthly yields more dollars per pilot than our rates would.

The NPA hasn't been around as long as the SWAPA, IPA, APA, ALPA, etc. Their success over the long term hasn't been assesed. However, I admire their effort to keep their junior pilots employed by agreeing to temporary pay cuts post September 11.