Pro's & con's of a union

[DarnNearaJet]

I am a regional/express pilot. I don't blame ALPA for where I am in life. I blame the economy. I had hoped I'd be at a major by now. I just can't fathom why so many regional pilots harbor animosity towards their union.

They would be a hell of a lot worse off without ALPA. Just like the bigger airlines -- union companies treat their employees much better than non-union companies.

To blame ALPA for regional pay/work rules is truly biting the hand that feeds you. You get what you negotiate.

 

[Andy Neill]

I'll go with when you say that Mesa, TSA, and the like are better with a union than without. I think it's a bit of a stretch to say they are better off there than at SkyWest.

 

[DC8Driver]

Ask any Ex-Emery pilot what he or she thinks of ALPA.

They take your money and drop you as soon as you can't pay dues anymore.

If you are not working for a major and your paying ALPa dues, your being robbed.

If you are a member of ALPA, please vote Duane Worthless out asap.

 

[Rvrrat]

variable weight gorrilla

Ironic turn of history.

Over time the unions have become the variable weight gorrilla which they were originally formed to counteract.

 

[surplus1]

I was just wondering what the pro's & cons were of having a union. ALPA (for a regional) vs. certifying an in house union?

You are really asking two questions here. The pros and cons of having "a union" are not the same as the pros and cons of ALPA vs Independent Union.

On having a union vs no union.

Pros = Union.

1. A certified union establishes legal rights for the employees and the Company.

2. Guarantees that the Company is required to bargain with the employees (union) for wages, working conditions and other rights. Establishes rules of how and when this must be done .

3. Provides a legally binding (on both parties) contract.

4. Establishes a grievance procedure, thereby changing the "at will" status of the employee. (Bypasses the detrimental side of a "right to worK" State ... like Utah, in that Federal law takes precedent)

5. Mandates the right of "representation" of the employee in all disputes with management.

Cons = no union

1. Employees have no legal, enforceable rights other than those provided by State Law. (In "right to work" States, this is usually zero).

2. The Company is not required by law to bargain with any group or individual over anything. Management retains ALL rights.

3. Contracts/agreements are NOT legally binding. May be changed or eliminated by the Company, unilaterally, at any time.

4. There is no legally binding grievance procedure. Employees are "employees at will" and may be disciplined or terminated at any time, with or without cause.

5. Employee has no legal right to representation in disputes with management.

6. Seniority system, if any, is not legally enforceable.

7. May create adversarial relationship and confrontation if management resists.


ALPA vs Independent Union

Pros = ALPA

1. Well established and adequately funded on the National level.

2. Most experienced in issues specific to pilots.

3. Very good in promoting safety related issues and ensuring good safety practices.

4. Excellent aeromedical facility. Most knowledgable in pilot related medical issues. Can prevent loss of medical in most cases.

5. Excellent political connections, particularly with National Mediation Board and also in Congress.

6. Strong support mechanisms, e.g., financial analysis, legal department (grievances - FAA issues), safety staff, representation department, contract administration. These are often referred to as "resources".

Cons = ALPA

1. Expensive dues structure. Small carriers not always adequately funded.

2. Extensive internal conflicts of interest between regional/major airlines. Favors major airlines.

3. "Resources" often used against you, rather than for you. Particularly if you are a small carrier.

4. Small carriers are actively "controlled" by the National union. Critical decisions often made by "others" not employed by your airline.

5. Very political. Small carriers have no political clout and can be outvoted on every issue. Totally dominated by major airlines.

6. Political influence and agenda often advances causes of major carriers regardless of impact on small carriers.

7. Foused on general interests as opposed to carrier specific interests.

Pros = Independent Union.

1. Focuses primarily on interests of the represented group. No conflict of interest. Very little external influence.

2. Provides the same legal rights of representation and bargaining afforded by a National union, without the burden of representing other entities or interests. Independent.

3. Dues structure can be less expensive. No dues used to support national structure or agendas of others.

4. Attorneys have only one client (no conflicts of interest). Your lawyers represent only your interests and you control them.

5. Can gain National clout by affiliation with Coalition of Airline Pilot Associations, without losing independence.

6. Can purchase many of the support requirements from other entities at reasonable cost.

7. Usually less adversarial (with/to management) due to absence of external agenda.

Cons = Independent Union

1. Generally lacks expertise and experience (unless knowledgable leaders available on the property.)

2. Finances limited to resources of the particular group. The smaller, the more difficult.

3. No or very little political influence.

4. Lacks in house support mechanisms such as those provided by a large union (ALPA).

5. Lacks meaningful recognition from large government organizations like NMB, FAA, until well established (or affiliated with CAPA).

Please note that all of these pros and cons are my personal opinions. Others may see things differently.

There are many successful Independent unions. Among them are the Allied Pilots Association (APA - American), SWAPA - SouthWest Pilots Association, IPA (Independent Pilots Association) representing UPS pilots, NPA (National Pilots Association) representing Air Tran pilots.

Until recently the IACP (CAL & CALEX) and the FPA (FedX) were also independent but merged with ALPA. The Teamsters also have an airline division, that currently represents Horizon, Airborne, Chautaqua, and other pilot groups (some of which are not airlines).

 

[Publishers]

post

Excellent post Surplus as to the good and the bad.

I think in the case of the current situation it is easy to see what happens in a downturn. Here the independant union has an advantage with the no national ajenda and focus on a particular company

 

[RocketRob]

Comparing in house unions to ALPA is a no brainer. We (CAL&XJET) used to have the IACP and are now ALPA. The IACP was ok and better than no union but they couldn't come close the the resources that ALPA has provided. We are now in negotiations and hope to make everyone proud (except management of course ) and I've been told over and over by our higher up's about how much better everything is for our negotaitors. They have top-notch lawyer's, benefits/retirement specialists, and medical help. Also ALPA Policical Action Commitee has worked hard to fight for all airline pilots in D.C.

 

[Slim]

If you are to form an independent union, consider the start up costs.

I have posted on this several times. If a pilot group decides to start their own independent union, they need to consider the cost of starting up, then the monthly costs of running same.

I believe Comair would need a group of 3,000-3,500 pilots to make an independent union viable. That can't happen today. If Comair and ASA joined together today, an independent union may be viable.

I am a current member of ALPA and a former member of an independent union.

Good luck and fly safe!

 

[surplus1]

If you are to form an independent union, consider the start up costs.

I have posted on this several times. If a pilot group decides to start their own independent union, they need to consider the cost of starting up, then the monthly costs of running same.

I believe Comair would need a group of 3,000-3,500 pilots to make an independent union viable. That can't happen today. If Comair and ASA joined together today, an independent union may be viable.

I am a current member of ALPA and a former member of an independent union.

Good luck and fly safe!

I agree that startup costs are an important consideration. I disagree strongly that Comair or any other group would need 3,000 pilots or more to make an independent union viable.

SWAPA, IPA and NPA (as well as others) were all started with far less than 3,000 members and have been quite successful.

What is required is strong and capable leaders and a united group of pilots. There is some number of minimum members that equates to adequate funding, but it is far less than 3,000. Keep in mind that the cost structure of an ALPA does not have to be emulated for success.

The current dues of CMR pilots, if allocated 100% to running a CMR specific union, are more than adequate.

Please don't misunderstand, I am NOT advocating an independent union for Comair (at this time), I'm only saying that it would definitely be viable from a financial point of view.

In my opinion, the key ingredient is qualified leadership and motivation of the group, not money.

 

[Slim]

I'm not advocating a split from ALPA at this time!

The numbers I used were supplied by our former MEC chairman in early 1998. I attempted to adjust for (1) inflation, (2) the payscale then vs. the payscale now, and (3) the number of pilots at Comair and ASA.

I agree with your observation concerning motivated and qualified leadership. That's essential, along with the money.

SWAPA and IPA are not fair comparisons. They fly larger equipment with higher rates of pay. Thus, the dues percentage they pay monthly yields more dollars per pilot than our rates would.

The NPA hasn't been around as long as the SWAPA, IPA, APA, ALPA, etc. Their success over the long term hasn't been assesed. However, I admire their effort to keep their junior pilots employed by agreeing to temporary pay cuts post September 11.