Prevent the Whipsaw: One Pilot Group

[jet pipe ovht]

I'm all for the idea. You say SkyWest is used to whipsaw ASA give me a specific example of where this has happened. Not just theory, i understand the theory. I want some examples.

 

[propilot1983]

I don't know that any examples exist. I am an XJT guy. Merging all lists together will hopefully prevent SkyWest management from pitting one pilot group against the other. One unified voice, better leverage in contract negotiations, and slowly taking back an industry that has gradually been widdled away. Some FO's make less than some workers at McDonalds. We are professionals and deserve to be treated that way on all levels. PREVENT THE WHIPSAW: ONE PILOT GROUP

 

[wms]

You do not want to merge lists with SKYW. We have it better than they do and merging the lists will bring us down. Right now there is healthy competion to see who can be better.

As far as whip-saw, that hasn't happened since they bought us and in fact this place has gotten better than anyone had imagined. I think ASA mgmt is driven to make ASA better in all areas than the parent company and it has been working.

Whip-sawing doesn't make a company better, it makes two companies worse. And being worse is not ASA's or SKYW's goal.

You were bought by a great company and that is a much better option than any of the alternatives XJet faced, from being bought by a true whipsawer to going the way of Comair.

Welcome aboard and I hope this turns out well for us all.

 

[ace6453]

I'm all for the idea. You say SkyWest is used to whipsaw ASA give me a specific example of where this has happened. Not just theory, i understand the theory. I want some examples.

How about during ASA's negotiations SKYW transferred 4 CR7's from ASA to SKYW when ASA didn't play ball at the negotiating table? Or when ASA had CR9 deliveries transferred to SKYW for the same reason. If we were all 1 pilot group, crap like that couldn't happen.

 

[JoeMerchant]

How about during ASA's negotiations SKYW transferred 4 CR7's from ASA to SKYW when ASA didn't play ball at the negotiating table? Or when ASA had CR9 deliveries transferred to SKYW for the same reason. If we were all 1 pilot group, crap like that couldn't happen.

Of course at the time, ALPA denied that it had anything to do with negotiations and that those 900s would have gone anyway...I didn't believe ALPA, but it seems ALPA likes to change the tune to suit it's message....Something to think about....

 

[ASA Captain]

Well Joe the fact is the company had only introduced it's 14% paycut opener a couple months prior. They tossed us a memo "announcing" the CR9's and less than three weeks later told the pilots that they were going to SKW because we didn't agree to their demands. Whether they were ever really going to come to ASA is debatable.

The union did not say it had nothing to do with negotiations. It had everything to do with negotiations. They were trying to beat us like they did the Comair group. They took it. We didn't. They took a paycut to get imaginary airplanes that never existed.

We told them to go stuff it.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Well Joe the fact is the company had only introduced it's 14% paycut opener a couple months prior. They tossed us a memo "announcing" the CR9's and less than three weeks later told the pilots that they were going to SKW because we didn't agree to their demands. Whether they were ever really going to come to ASA is debatable.

The union did not say it had nothing to do with negotiations. It had everything to do with negotiations. They were trying to beat us like they did the Comair group. They took it. We didn't. They took a paycut to get imaginary airplanes that never existed.

We told them to go stuff it.

So were we "whipsawed" or weren't we? I think we were.

 

[DCMartin]

Gimme a break. Just call it as it is. Xjt just wants SKW's better bases. SFO SBA PSP LAX DEN smell much nicer than EWR IAH and CLE. You rant this no whipsaw message but let's be realistic. It's not going to change much and you are pushing this for your own interests. SKW don't be fooled.

 

[79%N1]

One list with fences for seats and bases takes care of those worries about your precious West Coast bases. How about 2 years fence and then only vacancy driven movement allowed? Would that be enough to protect the Skywest pilots?

 

[wms]

Those -700s were moving and and the -900s were never coming to begin with. The company just saw an opportunity to see if they could use them for negotiations. They did the logical thing and we responded by not giving in.

In fact, I don't remember the company really saying give in or lose the planes. I think they just let the rumor mill do the work for them and they played along.

 

[NoJoy]

The one pilot list is going to be a tough sell for SkyWest pilots-as it should be. Why would they want that? And why would they want to give ALPA 2% or their paycheck for little gain? If there is to be "one" list, it will probably be XJT and ASA.

 

[crj567]

The one pilot list is going to be a tough sell for SkyWest pilots-as it should be. Why would they want that? And why would they want to give ALPA 2% or their paycheck for little gain? If there is to be "one" list, it will probably be XJT and ASA.

Of course, if a new SKYW vote were held, under the new rules, I think there would be no question that they would have a union.

 

[Spicepilots]

Of course, if a new SKYW vote were held, under the new rules, I think there would be no question that they would have a union.

Yeah, um, I actually work there, and I'm not sure I'd be willing to put money down on that bet. The talk on the SAPA forums is pretty much the same as it was prior to the last drive, but wanting a union is still different than wanting ALPA. Most of us still realize ALPA can't help us, we need to help ourselves. If it comes to another ALPA drive, our pilot apathy for just about everything aside, more people will vote, if only to vote NO.

 

[jet pipe ovht]

I agree with spicegirl pilot union yes. Alpa no. I think one list with some fences is good but I would like our pilot group to have an in house union funded by ourselves. Alpa will always follow the money, and 2% of the majors pay check will always beat 2% of ours. Let's get someone that really represents or interests.

 

[sweptback]

Of course at the time, ALPA denied that it had anything to do with negotiations and that those 900s would have gone anyway...I didn't believe ALPA, but it seems ALPA likes to change the tune to suit it's message....Something to think about....

There's a bit of revisionist history from you too.

Here are the facts. At the same time we were knee-deep in negotiations with no real progress, the company announced the closing of SLC and shortly thereafter announced that the 12 SLC-based CR7s would transfer to SkyWest. However, ASA's remaining 50 seat orders were converted to CR9s and would be delivered on a one-for-one basis to replace the transferred CR7s. Never mind at the time we did not have a CR9 rate which almost guaranteed that it would go to arbitration. This was not growth for ASA! The company said that there were 6 or 7 further CR9s to be delivered, but there was not a decision made as to where.

Transferring the first 4 700s to SkyWest cost SKYW, Inc. $4 million, none of which was reimbursed by Delta (they were hoping it would be). Once they realized how much this cost, the remaining 8 CR7s stayed at ASA. Then, of course, the CR9 deliveries mysteriously shifted to SkyWest, and the remaining unallocated CR9 deliveries went there too. ASA only lost 4 airplanes, but the point was made.

SkyWest pilots flew the CR9s for 70-seat block override rates, which put further pressure on ASA pilots to agree to a 70-76 seat rate. This is the textbook definition of a whipsaw!

So, when the union said that the airplanes were never coming here anyway, that is true, at least as growth airplanes. I don't see how anybody else could have argued otherwise.

 

[wms]

I agree with spicegirl pilot union yes. Alpa no. I think one list with some fences is good but I would like our pilot group to have an in house union funded by ourselves. Alpa will always follow the money, and 2% of the majors pay check will always beat 2% of ours. Let's get someone that really represents or interests.

2% of ML pilot's pay also goes into ALPA legal, aeromedical etc. When you need help with various issues in-house unions cannot help like ALPA can.

As far as ALPA addressing regional issues, when the CAL/UAL merger is done there will be two majors plus Fedex that are ALPA. Regionals will be the majority at ALPA and eventually they'll have to start giving us fair representation.

 

[propilot1983]

Gimme a break. Just call it as it is. Xjt just wants SKW's better bases. SFO SBA PSP LAX DEN smell much nicer than EWR IAH and CLE. You rant this no whipsaw message but let's be realistic. It's not going to change much and you are pushing this for your own interests. SKW don't be fooled.

You can't see past your own back yard. Truly sad.

 

[ratherbeflyen]

Xjt just wants SKW's better bases. You rant this no whipsaw message but let's be realistic. It's not going to change much and you are pushing this for your own interests. SKW don't be fooled.

You can't be serious? What do you think the pilot group took up a poll and asked to merge for west coast bases? Even if that were true, and it's not, the SoCal base wasn't opened until spring 07. If anyone from the west coast is trying to be home based in LAX they are most likely the junior pilots on the list and would go to the bottom of any base. (Nov 07 was the last new hire class) Xjet going after your bases has to be the most pathetic excuse I've heard of to keep separate lists. If its really that important to you write a contract that prevents it.

Let's play devils advocate for a minute. Say that CAL/UAL scope changes and they announce that 25 new 76 seat airplanes are going to be based in former CAL hubs IAH, CLE, and EWR. Not an unreasonable guess being the only hubs of any airline that has no RJ's bigger than 50 seats. The only thing that's going to matter to airline management is doing what ever is the cheapest. If every one of those airplanes goes on the Xjet/ASA certificate how will that impact you? What if those airplanes are transfered from the skyw side? What if it goes further and all new deliveries are some new yet to be invented airplane, and they all go on the Xjet/ASA certificate because its cheaper? Just because Skywest holdings and Skywest airlines have the same name don't make the mistake of thinking that you are immune to being the losing end of a whipsaw. The only ones that win by pitting pilot groups against each other is management, we all lose.

Xjet all your base are belong to us. Give me a break.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qItugh-fFgg

 

[cybourg10]

You can't be serious? What do you think the pilot group took up a poll and asked to merge for west coast bases? Even if that were true, and it's not, the SoCal base wasn't opened until spring 07. If anyone from the west coast is trying to be home based in LAX they are most likely the junior pilots on the list and would go to the bottom of any base. (Nov 07 was the last new hire class) Xjet going after your bases has to be the most pathetic excuse I've heard of to keep separate lists. If its really that important to you write a contract that prevents it.

Let's play devils advocate for a minute. Say that CAL/UAL scope changes and they announce that 25 new 76 seat airplanes are going to be based in former CAL hubs IAH, CLE, and EWR. Not an unreasonable guess being the only hubs of any airline that has no RJ's bigger than 50 seats. The only thing that's going to matter to airline management is doing what ever is the cheapest. If every one of those airplanes goes on the Xjet/ASA certificate how will that impact you? What if those airplanes are transfered from the skyw side? What if it goes further and all new deliveries are some new yet to be invented airplane, and they all go on the Xjet/ASA certificate because its cheaper? Just because Skywest holdings and Skywest airlines have the same name don't make the mistake of thinking that you are immune to being the losing end of a whipsaw. The only ones that win by pitting pilot groups against each other is management, we all lose.

Xjet all your base are belong to us. Give me a break.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qItugh-fFgg

Great post. There is a very good chance that the ASA/XJT side would see more growth than the SKYW side due to the economies of scale and east coast infrastructure already in place. SkyWest pilots have just as much to lose out of this as we do which is why I think they are going to try to buy some of Comair's assets to keep Jerry's Kids happy.

 

[Nevets]

You do not want to merge lists with SKYW. We have it better than they do and merging the lists will bring us down. Right now there is healthy competion to see who can be better.

As far as whip-saw, that hasn't happened since they bought us and in fact this place has gotten better than anyone had imagined. I think ASA mgmt is driven to make ASA better in all areas than the parent company and it has been working.

Whip-sawing doesn't make a company better, it makes two companies worse. And being worse is not ASA's or SKYW's goal.

You were bought by a great company and that is a much better option than any of the alternatives XJet faced, from being bought by a true whipsawer to going the way of Comair.

Welcome aboard and I hope this turns out well for us all.

Whipsaw hasn't happened? You may be a better run company but that doesn't mean that whipsaw hasn't happened. Anyways, XJT has already been whipsawed by SKW so its irrelevant to us if you haven't perceived it yet at ASA. But you are right, whipsaw doesn't make a company better, it just puts downward pressure on the employees compensation.

If we can get one list, I would agree with you that that is a better option for XJT pilots.

Gimme a break. Just call it as it is. Xjt just wants SKW's better bases. SFO SBA PSP LAX DEN smell much nicer than EWR IAH and CLE. You rant this no whipsaw message but let's be realistic. It's not going to change much and you are pushing this for your own interests. SKW don't be fooled.

Our ONT and LAX bases went really junior. All new hires were shoved over there. In any case, fences and the inability to displace anyone from bases, aircraft or seats should take care of any of those concerns.

The one pilot list is going to be a tough sell for SkyWest pilots-as it should be. Why would they want that? And why would they want to give ALPA 2% or their paycheck for little gain? If there is to be "one" list, it will probably be XJT and ASA.

Well, if its just ASA/XJT then it wouldn't be "one list" don't you think? I don't understand the fear of having one group of pilots to share in the success of their company.