Pressure on NWA pilots for 70 seaters

[AvroJockey]

Incorrecto...

1. Fact: The NWA Pilot agreement doesn't allow 70 seaters, period

2. Fact: There have been NO negotiations between management and the NWA negotiating commitee in several weeks. This comes straight from the MEC Communications Chairman, and backed up by the Council 1 Captain's Rep.

3. Fact: Any agreement is subject to membership ratification, which at this point, would be doubtful unless the airframes were on the NWA certificate and were flown by NWA pilots. Flow up/back is a big maybe...

4. Fact: The only people guessing and hoping here are wishful thinkers at XJ and 9E.


Nu

Not everyone wants to steal your job!

I would probably guess that almost every pilot in the XJ and 9E ranks wants to fly 70-seaters, though at mainline.

I'm a wishful thinker allright, wishin' the 70-seaters go to mainline so I can get a real job.

 

[Alchemy]

Not all of us RJ pukes want to see 70 or 90 seat scope-busting aircraft at our airlines, despite the fact that it's already being done and would benefit us individually for the short term. As a relative newcomer, I can't see a productive use for all the animosity between mainline and express/airlink/connection carriers. Contracting labor out to the lowest bidder is a management fantasy, and I'm sure they'd do it on 747's rather than just aircraft under 100 seats if they could figure out a way. In the end, that's all we regionals boil down too....cheap contract labor. Let's not replace the word "regionals" in that sentence with the word "pilots". Keep the 70 seaters at mainline at CAL and NWA.

 

[ExAF]

Seniority Where?

If mainline gives up the 70 seaters, the DC9 flying will eventually get farmed out and mainline will shrink again. There won't be much of a need for a replacement 100 seater because the 70-90 seaters will fill the gap between the 45 seaters and the Airbi. They will just park the 9s as they come due for major maintenance and the flying will go to the feeder of choice at the time. If that flying goes away now, mainline will lose that flying forever. The regionals will continue to grow and will be able to look forward to remaining at the regional for a lot longer than they may have anticipated when they hired on. There won't be any mainline movement to move into. Remember...it is mainline flying, bought and paid for. Why shouldn't mainline get the left seat. Seniority does have everything to do with it, seniority at mainline and not the regional.

 

[Mesabi Miner]

Let's cool it

All of us are in this crappy situation together. Nobody is better than anyone else. The person that first built the wall between "major" and "regional" did this industry a severe disservice that is hugely exploited by our managements. It makes me sick to see the DC-9s on the way out. They are NWA's "paid for" bread and butter. The last thing we need are more CRJs. But, everyone needs to realize that Mr. Joe Shmoe FO has nothing to do with the allocation of flights and resources. The animosity seen these days should not be directed toward the rank and file. Let's face it. We're all just replaceable laborers. We are just numbers. Want to get mad at somebody? Let's get p1ssed at our management, not at the jumpseater who's trying to get home to his or her family. And along with management, why not get more on ALPA's case? In my opinion, ALPA has done this industry a severe injustice by maintaining the segregation between all of us.

MM - 5 year XJ Saab FO

 

[TurboAWD]

You got it Masabi, ALPA (and any pilot group that voted to relieve scope, particularly on the 70+seaters) is screwing everyone but the most senior pilots by letting "regionals" fly any jets.

Personally, I'd rather be furloughed from NW than working at 9E.
I hope NW holds on to the 70 seaters, but unfortunately the other pilot groups have made that pretty hard for them to do that.

I also find it odd that NW is parking "paid-for" aircraft, considering the load factors were well in to the 90's last summer (even if they do burn a ton of fuel).
If these ticket price increases hold (and hopefully grow), I would think it would be even dumber. Seems awfully familiar to the XJ Avro dissapearing scare during their negotiations.

And what the heck are they thinking puting CRJ's hub-hub (starts in May).
Let's see, need more frequency? No.
DC-9's and Airbus running with lots of empty seats? No.

 

[AnimalTale]

All of us are in this crappy situation together. Nobody is better than anyone else. The person that first built the wall between "major" and "regional" did this industry a severe disservice that is hugely exploited by our managements. It makes me sick to see the DC-9s on the way out. They are NWA's "paid for" bread and butter. The last thing we need are more CRJs. But, everyone needs to realize that Mr. Joe Shmoe FO has nothing to do with the allocation of flights and resources. The animosity seen these days should not be directed toward the rank and file. Let's face it. We're all just replaceable laborers. We are just numbers. Want to get mad at somebody? Let's get p1ssed at our management, not at the jumpseater who's trying to get home to his or her family. And along with management, why not get more on ALPA's case? In my opinion, ALPA has done this industry a severe injustice by maintaining the segregation between all of us.

MM - 5 year XJ Saab FO

Excellent observation! I agree.

 

[AnimalTale]

You got it Masabi, ALPA (and any pilot group that voted to relieve scope, particularly on the 70+seaters) is screwing everyone but the most senior pilots by letting "regionals" fly any jets.

Personally, I'd rather be furloughed from NW than working at 9E.
I hope NW holds on to the 70 seaters, but unfortunately the other pilot groups have made that pretty hard for them to do that.

I also find it odd that NW is parking "paid-for" aircraft, considering the load factors were well in to the 90's last summer (even if they do burn a ton of fuel).
If these ticket price increases hold (and hopefully grow), I would think it would be even dumber. Seems awfully familiar to the XJ Avro dissapearing scare during their negotiations.

And what the heck are they thinking puting CRJ's hub-hub (starts in May).
Let's see, need more frequency? No.
DC-9's and Airbus running with lots of empty seats? No.

Another great realization!

 

[avrodriverj85]

Since we are all sitting around the campfire, stroking each other, and singing kum-ba-ya, let realize this - mainline flying doesn't belong to mainline pilots, nor does it belong to regional pilots that fly under the NWA flag; it belongs to NWA. Management can do whatever they want with it. Everything else is subject to negotiation.

Now with that said, the NWA mainline pilots and regional pilots need to pull there heads out of their asses and fire ALPA up. Afterall, you're paying them to represent you, they claim they are doing a good job, so force them to earn that money or fire them. If we just continue to sit around and play this tit-for-tat for the next couple of years, it's gonna really suck.

Maybe ALPA has worn out there welcome or usefulness around here? Seems we keep moving backwards while they continue to claim victory.

 

[General Lee]

Avro,


Unfortunately you cannot see that LCC competition will kill you in your RJs with their mainline sized aircraft. If management wants to try to compete with RJs, they will lose. Also, with lower fares, it is more important to have more seats to compete. You don't see Southwest or Airtran with any RJs, because they need many seats to pull in profits with their lower fares. Check out how Indy Air is doing. Yeah, they have some A319s, but not enough. Your RJ only does well on routes NOT served by LCCs, and they are growing.

Also, before you asked me why I thought NW furloughs should go to the left seat instead of the right. Well, it all depends on what they can negotiate. We didn't do that at DL, and our guys were offered right seat at ASA and CHQ. On the other hand, AA, CO, and USAir negotiated deals for direct entry left seat, and since their regional partners were taking a lot of their old mainline routes, it was fair for them, and the company obviously agreed. Any NEW flying should be offered to the furloughed pilots. (IMO) AS far as displacing current left seaters at the regional partners, I don't think that is a good idea. As far as 6 year FOs, sorry.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[CWASaab]

...and the NWA MEC respects their regional counterparts, utmost. In...

I used to think this was true, to some extent. After years of going to recurrent ground school pizza dinners hosted by the XJ MEC, where a member of the NWA MEC would stop in and answer questions and give a great rah-rah brand scope pep talk, who could blame a guy for buying into the rhetoric. Did I mention the pizza came with free beer?

And then there were those great public signs of brotherhood: a certificate thanking me for my support during NWA's strike (didn't quite make up for XJ holding our pay hostage) and the giant billboard informing the public how poorly our newhires were paid leading up to our contract endgame (that was actually pretty cool).

They talk a great deal about brand scope and the red-tail family, but the truth however is that the NWA MEC and the NWA pilots have utmost concern for only themselves. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with looking out for number one, I just don't want to hear any more BS about brand scope and how much they support XJ (or 9E).

Why?

Until fairly recently the Northwest pilots had in there contract the right to restrict NWA from adding additional Airlinks. Not only do their recent contract changes allow for a third airlink (in the event a competitor folds an associated regional could be brought in to the family), it specificly prohibits (from my understanding) XJ or 9E from doing that new flying.

I can understand the desire to swoop in and start up operations immediately in such a case, but a wet-lease type of arrangement until XJ or 9E could take full opperation seems much more family friendly, to those in the existing family anyway. I sure felt sold out by this change.

Recognizing NWA's pattern of switching flying/growth away from which ever of the three groups is closest to endgame, I once asked the NWA MEC visitor to a XJ pizza dinner why the three pilot groups don't do a little coordination, and attempt to sign deals that become amendable at more or less the same time. Seems like the surest way to limit whipsaw. His answer was a long the lines of 'sounds great, but we would probably have to give something up to negotiate that, and I don't think the MEC or the NWA pilots would be willing to do that.' I felt a little stupid after asking the question, I honestly thought they cared, after all it sure is what they claim publicly, foolish me.

The goal with brand scope is to limit management's ability to threaten pilot groups during negotiations with the "airline xyz will under-bid us and be awarded our flying if we don't get a cost-neutral contract" BS, as well as keeping whipsaw-ing in check.

By pulling the rug out from under 9E and XJ, we have now seen just how committed ALPA, the NWA MEC and the NWA pilots are to their own rhetoric of brand scope and to stopping the current 'lowest-bidder-slide-to-the-bottom-squeeze-blood-from-a-turnip' phenomena.

...and the NWA MEC respects their regional counterparts, utmost. In...

There is no respect, just another bullet point to negotiate away when times are tough. The NWA MEC only cares about the NWA pilots.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.

 

[Flechas]

Better yet, lets hope oil continues to go up. Let the weed out begin. I dream of the day when the desert is full of RJ's.

That will happen after you retire, so don't even stress about it.

 

[mjs]

Until fairly recently the Northwest pilots had in there contract the right to restrict NWA from adding additional Airlinks. Not only do their recent contract changes allow for a third airlink (in the event a competitor folds an associated regional could be brought in to the family), it specificly prohibits (from my understanding) XJ or 9E from doing that new flying.

I can understand the desire to swoop in and start up operations immediately in such a case, but a wet-lease type of arrangement until XJ or 9E could take full opperation seems much more family friendly, to those in the existing family anyway. I sure felt sold out by this change.

They were not selling you out. This change was a guarantee to protect the concessions they were giving up. If the projected $300 mil in savings, once realized, was then used by NWA to gain additional aircraft for XJ or 9E, the pilots would have taken pay cuts in order to help XJ or 9E grow. Because (if I am not mistaken) the contracts w/ XJ & 9E require them to get their aircraft from NWA. The point of their pay cuts was to help NWA's cash on hand status not to fund additional aircraft for other carriers. It was a smart move on their part.

MS

 

[Jimdandy]

The point your provision in your contract allows anyone to get additional 50 seat flying just so long as it isn't XJ or 9E even if we bought the aircraft oursleves!

Why can everyone else but not us!

WHY?

 

[mjs]

The point your provision in your contract allows anyone to get additional 50 seat flying just so long as it isn't XJ or 9E even if we bought the aircraft oursleves!

Why can everyone else but not us!

WHY?

Maybe I am wrong, but I think the language in the contracts between NWA and XJ/9E prohibit either from operating anything BUT aircraft that are leased from NWA. This would include aircraft owned by either company.

NWA pilots were saying, "we will give you the additional flying BUT you cannot use OUR money that we are giving up in concessions to help finance the deal."

NWA MEC cannot change the terms of the agreement between NWA and XJ/9E. If those contracts were renegotiated, then an additional TA could be passed to allow XJ or 9E to do the flying. But at the time the pilots agreed to pay cuts, they had to have a guarantee the money would be used for its intended use, not to finance additional aircraft for other companies.

MS

 

[JamesD]

The money gets thier either way. This just allows NWA to have more competion to lower the Bar. And now three months later NWA is asking once again for more cuts, and I predict the'll get what they want then ask again in another three months. Its time to be smart and beat them at their own game. How to do that is the great unknown but allowing them the leverage to keep lowering the bar at any major or regional is not the answer. Alpa needs to unite all of the regionals and majors together including the LCC. Their next management at SWA is starting to ask for cuts, and they will get them. That's their status as a pilot in life. They went to a LCC for a reason, a few were because of choice but most it was the best they could get. If we don't find common ground with everyone then where all going to be, well you know

 

[mjs]

NWA is not currently asking pilots for more concessions, just the other unions that have been dragging their feet and filing stupid lawsuits. The pilots agreed in their TA to go back to the table when all the other unions had taken cuts. Another smart move to make sure they are not the only ones taking pay cuts.

 

[JamesD]

You need to keep up on the latest news, it just came out today.

 

[CWASaab]

Maybe I am wrong, but I think the language in the contracts between NWA and XJ/9E prohibit either from operating anything BUT aircraft that are leased from NWA. This would include aircraft owned by either company.

I think you are correct, however things could be changing shortly with 9E as their Airlink Agreement will allow for them to fly for airlines other than NWA soon (if not already?).

NWA pilots were saying, "we will give you the additional flying BUT you cannot use OUR money that we are giving up in concessions to help finance the deal."

I think this is a reasonable thing to want, just look at Delta, and the animosity some of their mainliners feel towards the DCAs whose airplane payments Delta is covering, a huge debt no doubt (just look at general lee's posts here). I would sure hope that never happens between NW, XJ and 9E. Watch out, there I go again with the foolish optimism.

NWA MEC cannot change the terms of the agreement between NWA and XJ/9E. If those contracts were renegotiated, then an additional TA could be passed to allow XJ or 9E to do the flying. But at the time the pilots agreed to pay cuts, they had to have a guarantee the money would be used for its intended use, not to finance additional aircraft for other companies.

MS

While I can perhaps conceed that the NWA MEC is currently not in a position to force changes to the current Airlink Agreements (but only because they are unwilling to pay the costs), the language NWA pilots voted to accept does indeed sell out XJ and 9E, after years of brand scope cheerleading.

If the pilots of NWA really cared about brand scope and keeping the race-to-the-bottom types seperated from the red tail family, then all that was needed was language that prevents NWA from purchasing or leasing additional aircraft to be operated by a company other than NWA, and its pilots.

No changes to current agreements required. Obviously if NWA wanted more Airlink aircraft, then the agreements would need to be amended, which is not a big deal. I see no need to exclude XJ or 9E from potential growth, or open the door to a third Airlink to achieve the stated goal.

It sure seems to me that the NWA MEC gave in to management, at the expense of XJ and 9E pilots, because they were unwilling to spend negotiating capital to protect the Airlinks. From my perspective the NWA pilots got what they needed, by allowing management the chance to make their whipsaw against 9E and XJ more effective. In other words, XJ and 9E pilots were sold out.

I am not so arrogant as to think I have changed your mind, but neither is there much chance of you changing mine. I think we will probably have to agree to disagree.

 

[mjs]

You need to keep up on the latest news, it just came out today.

Read the news story....

Northwest Airlines to Seek Bigger Pay Cuts
Wednesday March 23, 4:33 pm ET
Northwest Airlines to Seek Bigger Pay, Benefit Cuts From Its Workers, CFO Suggests

MINNEAPOLIS (AP) -- Northwest Airlines will soon seek bigger pay and benefit cuts from its workers, the airline's chief financial officer suggested. Bernie Han, citing high fuel prices and a weak fare climate, said Northwest "will probably have a new target announced sometime in the upcoming weeks." The company wants to reach cost-cutting labor agreements with its unions by the end of the year, he said.

Han, speaking Tuesday at the Goldman Sachs Transportation Conference in New York, said there is a "greater urgency to get our labor cost savings in place." For the past two years, Northwest has said it wants to cut annual labor costs by $950 million. So far, the Eagan-based carrier has reduced its labor costs by $300 million a year by cutting the compensation of pilots and salaried workers.

It remains in mediated contract talks with the mechanics and ground workers unions. In early April, Northwest and the flight attendants union will meet for the first time with a mediator.

In addition to high fuel prices, Han said Northwest is being hurt by the fare restructuring launched by Delta Air Lines Inc. in January.

Northwest Airlines Corp. shares rose 26 cents, or 3.8 percent, to close at $7.09 in Wednesday trading on the Nasdaq Stock Market. The stock has traded in a 52-week range of $6.51 to $11.83.



No where does it state that pilots are being asked for more give-backs at this time. Why should NWA spend time on the pilots at this point? They already have an agreement that the pilots will come back to the table when all the other groups have new contracts in place. I don't think it was ever a question of whether there would be additional give-backs by the pilots. It is only a question of when.

This news release is tactical pr. It is directed entirely at PFAA and AMFA. Basically, if these two groups had come to the table months ago, ready to negotiate, then they would have a much better contract. But both groups have instead resorted to stall tactics. So now that mediators have been assigned to both groups to work on a contract and they will be asked for more in concessions. Just a repeat of the DALPA story.

 

[mjs]

It sure seems to me that the NWA MEC gave in to management, at the expense of XJ and 9E pilots, because they were unwilling to spend negotiating capital to protect the Airlinks. From my perspective the NWA pilots got what they needed, by allowing management the chance to make their whipsaw against 9E and XJ more effective. In other words, XJ and 9E pilots were sold out.
.

I do agree with you that the agreement is not beneficial to XJ and 9E pilots. But do you really expect them to spend their negotiating capital to protect the airlinks? What if they took additional pay cuts as a trade to protect the airlinks, then 9E, starts flying for other carriers, then 9E decides they do not want to fly for NWA any more? Or either of them filed chapt. 7? Or NWA terminates their contract with either one?

Ask the flight attendants about negotiating dues check off in a previous contract only to find out that they will now have to negotiate for it again b/c they switched unions.

I guess my point is, this business is really unstable. It would not be wise to spend negotiating capital on things that are out of their control.

MS