Pressure on NWA pilots for 70 seaters

[AvroJockey]

Incorrecto...

1. Fact: The NWA Pilot agreement doesn't allow 70 seaters, period

2. Fact: There have been NO negotiations between management and the NWA negotiating commitee in several weeks. This comes straight from the MEC Communications Chairman, and backed up by the Council 1 Captain's Rep.

3. Fact: Any agreement is subject to membership ratification, which at this point, would be doubtful unless the airframes were on the NWA certificate and were flown by NWA pilots. Flow up/back is a big maybe...

4. Fact: The only people guessing and hoping here are wishful thinkers at XJ and 9E.


Nu

Not everyone wants to steal your job!

I would probably guess that almost every pilot in the XJ and 9E ranks wants to fly 70-seaters, though at mainline.

I'm a wishful thinker allright, wishin' the 70-seaters go to mainline so I can get a real job.

 

[Alchemy]

Not all of us RJ pukes want to see 70 or 90 seat scope-busting aircraft at our airlines, despite the fact that it's already being done and would benefit us individually for the short term. As a relative newcomer, I can't see a productive use for all the animosity between mainline and express/airlink/connection carriers. Contracting labor out to the lowest bidder is a management fantasy, and I'm sure they'd do it on 747's rather than just aircraft under 100 seats if they could figure out a way. In the end, that's all we regionals boil down too....cheap contract labor. Let's not replace the word "regionals" in that sentence with the word "pilots". Keep the 70 seaters at mainline at CAL and NWA.

 

[ExAF]

Seniority Where?

If mainline gives up the 70 seaters, the DC9 flying will eventually get farmed out and mainline will shrink again. There won't be much of a need for a replacement 100 seater because the 70-90 seaters will fill the gap between the 45 seaters and the Airbi. They will just park the 9s as they come due for major maintenance and the flying will go to the feeder of choice at the time. If that flying goes away now, mainline will lose that flying forever. The regionals will continue to grow and will be able to look forward to remaining at the regional for a lot longer than they may have anticipated when they hired on. There won't be any mainline movement to move into. Remember...it is mainline flying, bought and paid for. Why shouldn't mainline get the left seat. Seniority does have everything to do with it, seniority at mainline and not the regional.

 

[Mesabi Miner]

Let's cool it

All of us are in this crappy situation together. Nobody is better than anyone else. The person that first built the wall between "major" and "regional" did this industry a severe disservice that is hugely exploited by our managements. It makes me sick to see the DC-9s on the way out. They are NWA's "paid for" bread and butter. The last thing we need are more CRJs. But, everyone needs to realize that Mr. Joe Shmoe FO has nothing to do with the allocation of flights and resources. The animosity seen these days should not be directed toward the rank and file. Let's face it. We're all just replaceable laborers. We are just numbers. Want to get mad at somebody? Let's get p1ssed at our management, not at the jumpseater who's trying to get home to his or her family. And along with management, why not get more on ALPA's case? In my opinion, ALPA has done this industry a severe injustice by maintaining the segregation between all of us.

MM - 5 year XJ Saab FO

 

[TurboAWD]

You got it Masabi, ALPA (and any pilot group that voted to relieve scope, particularly on the 70+seaters) is screwing everyone but the most senior pilots by letting "regionals" fly any jets.

Personally, I'd rather be furloughed from NW than working at 9E.
I hope NW holds on to the 70 seaters, but unfortunately the other pilot groups have made that pretty hard for them to do that.

I also find it odd that NW is parking "paid-for" aircraft, considering the load factors were well in to the 90's last summer (even if they do burn a ton of fuel).
If these ticket price increases hold (and hopefully grow), I would think it would be even dumber. Seems awfully familiar to the XJ Avro dissapearing scare during their negotiations.

And what the heck are they thinking puting CRJ's hub-hub (starts in May).
Let's see, need more frequency? No.
DC-9's and Airbus running with lots of empty seats? No.

 

[AnimalTale]

All of us are in this crappy situation together. Nobody is better than anyone else. The person that first built the wall between "major" and "regional" did this industry a severe disservice that is hugely exploited by our managements. It makes me sick to see the DC-9s on the way out. They are NWA's "paid for" bread and butter. The last thing we need are more CRJs. But, everyone needs to realize that Mr. Joe Shmoe FO has nothing to do with the allocation of flights and resources. The animosity seen these days should not be directed toward the rank and file. Let's face it. We're all just replaceable laborers. We are just numbers. Want to get mad at somebody? Let's get p1ssed at our management, not at the jumpseater who's trying to get home to his or her family. And along with management, why not get more on ALPA's case? In my opinion, ALPA has done this industry a severe injustice by maintaining the segregation between all of us.

MM - 5 year XJ Saab FO

Excellent observation! I agree.

 

[AnimalTale]

You got it Masabi, ALPA (and any pilot group that voted to relieve scope, particularly on the 70+seaters) is screwing everyone but the most senior pilots by letting "regionals" fly any jets.

Personally, I'd rather be furloughed from NW than working at 9E.
I hope NW holds on to the 70 seaters, but unfortunately the other pilot groups have made that pretty hard for them to do that.

I also find it odd that NW is parking "paid-for" aircraft, considering the load factors were well in to the 90's last summer (even if they do burn a ton of fuel).
If these ticket price increases hold (and hopefully grow), I would think it would be even dumber. Seems awfully familiar to the XJ Avro dissapearing scare during their negotiations.

And what the heck are they thinking puting CRJ's hub-hub (starts in May).
Let's see, need more frequency? No.
DC-9's and Airbus running with lots of empty seats? No.

Another great realization!

 

[avrodriverj85]

Since we are all sitting around the campfire, stroking each other, and singing kum-ba-ya, let realize this - mainline flying doesn't belong to mainline pilots, nor does it belong to regional pilots that fly under the NWA flag; it belongs to NWA. Management can do whatever they want with it. Everything else is subject to negotiation.

Now with that said, the NWA mainline pilots and regional pilots need to pull there heads out of their asses and fire ALPA up. Afterall, you're paying them to represent you, they claim they are doing a good job, so force them to earn that money or fire them. If we just continue to sit around and play this tit-for-tat for the next couple of years, it's gonna really suck.

Maybe ALPA has worn out there welcome or usefulness around here? Seems we keep moving backwards while they continue to claim victory.

 

[General Lee]

Avro,


Unfortunately you cannot see that LCC competition will kill you in your RJs with their mainline sized aircraft. If management wants to try to compete with RJs, they will lose. Also, with lower fares, it is more important to have more seats to compete. You don't see Southwest or Airtran with any RJs, because they need many seats to pull in profits with their lower fares. Check out how Indy Air is doing. Yeah, they have some A319s, but not enough. Your RJ only does well on routes NOT served by LCCs, and they are growing.

Also, before you asked me why I thought NW furloughs should go to the left seat instead of the right. Well, it all depends on what they can negotiate. We didn't do that at DL, and our guys were offered right seat at ASA and CHQ. On the other hand, AA, CO, and USAir negotiated deals for direct entry left seat, and since their regional partners were taking a lot of their old mainline routes, it was fair for them, and the company obviously agreed. Any NEW flying should be offered to the furloughed pilots. (IMO) AS far as displacing current left seaters at the regional partners, I don't think that is a good idea. As far as 6 year FOs, sorry.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[CWASaab]

...and the NWA MEC respects their regional counterparts, utmost. In...

I used to think this was true, to some extent. After years of going to recurrent ground school pizza dinners hosted by the XJ MEC, where a member of the NWA MEC would stop in and answer questions and give a great rah-rah brand scope pep talk, who could blame a guy for buying into the rhetoric. Did I mention the pizza came with free beer?

And then there were those great public signs of brotherhood: a certificate thanking me for my support during NWA's strike (didn't quite make up for XJ holding our pay hostage) and the giant billboard informing the public how poorly our newhires were paid leading up to our contract endgame (that was actually pretty cool).

They talk a great deal about brand scope and the red-tail family, but the truth however is that the NWA MEC and the NWA pilots have utmost concern for only themselves. I am not saying that there is anything wrong with looking out for number one, I just don't want to hear any more BS about brand scope and how much they support XJ (or 9E).

Why?

Until fairly recently the Northwest pilots had in there contract the right to restrict NWA from adding additional Airlinks. Not only do their recent contract changes allow for a third airlink (in the event a competitor folds an associated regional could be brought in to the family), it specificly prohibits (from my understanding) XJ or 9E from doing that new flying.

I can understand the desire to swoop in and start up operations immediately in such a case, but a wet-lease type of arrangement until XJ or 9E could take full opperation seems much more family friendly, to those in the existing family anyway. I sure felt sold out by this change.

Recognizing NWA's pattern of switching flying/growth away from which ever of the three groups is closest to endgame, I once asked the NWA MEC visitor to a XJ pizza dinner why the three pilot groups don't do a little coordination, and attempt to sign deals that become amendable at more or less the same time. Seems like the surest way to limit whipsaw. His answer was a long the lines of 'sounds great, but we would probably have to give something up to negotiate that, and I don't think the MEC or the NWA pilots would be willing to do that.' I felt a little stupid after asking the question, I honestly thought they cared, after all it sure is what they claim publicly, foolish me.

The goal with brand scope is to limit management's ability to threaten pilot groups during negotiations with the "airline xyz will under-bid us and be awarded our flying if we don't get a cost-neutral contract" BS, as well as keeping whipsaw-ing in check.

By pulling the rug out from under 9E and XJ, we have now seen just how committed ALPA, the NWA MEC and the NWA pilots are to their own rhetoric of brand scope and to stopping the current 'lowest-bidder-slide-to-the-bottom-squeeze-blood-from-a-turnip' phenomena.

...and the NWA MEC respects their regional counterparts, utmost. In...

There is no respect, just another bullet point to negotiate away when times are tough. The NWA MEC only cares about the NWA pilots.

Not that there is anything wrong with that.