samballs
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Holy crap! Has REZ got to you?
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President of Regional Airline Assoc. says regional pilot pay "fair and reasonable"
- Thread starter ualdriver
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samballs
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Lets face it, people running stores are in charge of money and a product. We're in charge of peoples lifes, if we kill them it doesn't really cost that much. A small payment, a couple of months of CNN reporting bad news, and insurance will be mad at you. Now manager of store, he can steal money for a long time, get the company sued, and ruin a product that is not really needed like flying.
JustaNumber
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Unfortunately life's not fair, and we don't get paid what we're worth, we get paid what we can negotiate. If the market demands higher wages, we'll get them; if pilots are willing to work for nothing, we won't. It will eventually help when prospective pilots realize that making it to the majors is becoming as rare as making it to the NFL/NBA/MLB etc., and they need to decide if a regional career alone is worth it. It sure would help if ALPA would quit perpetuating the ponzi scheme, by at least advertising the reality of what being a pilot today means.
A requirement for an ATP for BOTH seats would help the supply/demand equation as well.
Flybywire44
Flies With The Hat On
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Browntothebone
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Captain Morgan
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Just playing "Devil's Advocate" here but, how long does it take to get to one of those positions and how long do you have to slug it out as a cashier/burger flipper/fry cook/floor mopper?
NCFlyer
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Simple supply & demand.
I may have a few facts wrong so correct me if that is so, but several years ago in the aftermath of an ASA crash didn't 1 of their management personnel testify that $15.00 / hour was adequate compensation. When asked how he came to that conclusion, he stated something about how he could get more pilots than he needed at that pay, why should he pay more.
I may have a few facts wrong so correct me if that is so, but several years ago in the aftermath of an ASA crash didn't 1 of their management personnel testify that $15.00 / hour was adequate compensation. When asked how he came to that conclusion, he stated something about how he could get more pilots than he needed at that pay, why should he pay more.
30West
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I'd be willing to bet an online 2 year business degree would trump the traditional "work your way up" path.
Sent to [email protected]
To Whom it may concern:
My name is XXX XXXX. I am an Embraer 190 First Officer for JetBlue Airways and type-rated as Pilot-in-Command in the Embraer 145 with 1800 hours of Regional Airline Captain experience. I have 7000 hours total flying time, 5000 of which is in scheduled part 121 service.
Mr. Cohen's testimony in the matter of the Colgan 3407 accident is dis-ingenuous at best, and an outright lie at worst. For him to testify that $17800 per year (my first year First Officer pay at Chautauqua Airlines), or $25600 (my second year pay) is "fair and reasonable" is disgusting. Does Mr. Cohen actually believe this is a "fair and reasonable" wage as stated in his written testimony? Mr. Cohen compares the piloting profession to occupations that have little to zero direct responsibility for human life. His testimony regarding fatigue rules and FARs is also disingenuous. Mr. Cohen has completely omitted the fact that pilots typically spend 2 hours on duty for every hour of paid flight time.
Additionally, his claims that Regional Pilots are trained to the same qualifications as Major Airline Pilots is laughable at best. I can directly attest that pilots for Regional Airlines are trained to the minimum federal standards while pilots at Major carriers are given extensive training above and beyond the minimum requirements.
Mr. Cohen you have perjured yourself before Congress. I'm certain you know the truth about the industry, and your lying now that the truth is coming to light is despicable. Rest assured I am part of a growing group of pilots with experience at both Regional and Major airlines who are working to assure that your lies will be exposed.
Sincerely,
Feel free to cut and paste at will. This clown needs about 17000 of these letters filling up his inbox. Now that the seedy underbelly is being exposed he is directly LYING about it.
To Whom it may concern:
My name is XXX XXXX. I am an Embraer 190 First Officer for JetBlue Airways and type-rated as Pilot-in-Command in the Embraer 145 with 1800 hours of Regional Airline Captain experience. I have 7000 hours total flying time, 5000 of which is in scheduled part 121 service.
Mr. Cohen's testimony in the matter of the Colgan 3407 accident is dis-ingenuous at best, and an outright lie at worst. For him to testify that $17800 per year (my first year First Officer pay at Chautauqua Airlines), or $25600 (my second year pay) is "fair and reasonable" is disgusting. Does Mr. Cohen actually believe this is a "fair and reasonable" wage as stated in his written testimony? Mr. Cohen compares the piloting profession to occupations that have little to zero direct responsibility for human life. His testimony regarding fatigue rules and FARs is also disingenuous. Mr. Cohen has completely omitted the fact that pilots typically spend 2 hours on duty for every hour of paid flight time.
Additionally, his claims that Regional Pilots are trained to the same qualifications as Major Airline Pilots is laughable at best. I can directly attest that pilots for Regional Airlines are trained to the minimum federal standards while pilots at Major carriers are given extensive training above and beyond the minimum requirements.
Mr. Cohen you have perjured yourself before Congress. I'm certain you know the truth about the industry, and your lying now that the truth is coming to light is despicable. Rest assured I am part of a growing group of pilots with experience at both Regional and Major airlines who are working to assure that your lies will be exposed.
Sincerely,
Feel free to cut and paste at will. This clown needs about 17000 of these letters filling up his inbox. Now that the seedy underbelly is being exposed he is directly LYING about it.
pilotyip
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- Nov 26, 2001
- Posts
- 13,629
Mr. Cohen-
I just wanted to drop you a brief note concerning your public comments made to the media and in testimony to public officials.
I find a couple of your public comments disingenous at best and outright lies at worst. I'm sure you have many years "in the business" as do I, so I won't waste time listing my extensive background in the Part 121 world.
First of all, you stated that regional airline pay is "fair and reasonable?" Certainly you are joking? I don't know if you've ever tried to live on regional airline pilot wages (I have) but I can assure you that they are neither fair nor reasonable, especially considering that the typical regional airline pilot has the debt associated with a 4 year degree and probably $50,000+ in flight training expenses. Further, if Colgan's compensation was "fair and reasonable," they would have been able to attract more qualified pilots than the pilots found in the cockpit of the fateful Buffalo crash that has attracted so much attention. You and I both know that there has been a large oversupply of pilots in this country for about 2 decades now and airlines like Colgan could have EASILY hired pilots with thousands of hours of experience had they simply paid a reasonable wage. Instead, they decided to work "on the cheap" and decided to hire and retain one pilot with a history of checkride failures and another with minimal experience. Yes, Mr. Cohen, pay at regionals like Colgan are so "fair and reasonable," that the two pilots in this example crash were the best, brightest, and most experienced the industry had to offer. Or perhaps, maybe you are mistaken, and only the inexperienced and those with "checkered" pasts are the only ones that accept employment at bottom-feeding airlines like Colgan with their "fair and reasonable" wages?
I also heard you state that there is "one level of safety" between the regionals and majors. Considering your experience in the business, cetainly that statement was a mistake as well? Again, you and I both know that there has NEVER been one level of safety between the majors and the regionals. There has been, perhaps, "in theory" but certainly not in reality. The hiring of extremely inexperienced pilots in order to "save a buck" aside, where is the RAA's public statements DEMANDING that all of its members have FOQA and ASRS programs, for example? Certainly if there was "one level of safety," the RAA could have demanded that years ago but again, you and I both know that will only happen when enough tombstones have been laid. I could go on and on, but I don't want to bore your secretary any further as I'm sure you are well insulated from the realities the rest of your constituent's employees deal with every day. One level of safety makes for nice soundbites though, huh Mr. Cohen?
In closing, I have a suggestion for the RAA. With all due respect, I think you are poor representative for your organization, considering the many statements you have made to the media and in testimony. I would suggest that the RAA do what many of your member airline do.....furlough you and replace you with someone fresh out of business college with little or no experience in the real world. Pay him $20,000 - $25,000 per year (certainly a fair and reasonable wage- I mean paramedics make that much!) and save your members some money on their membership fees. Certainly if it "works" for your member airlines (well, except for Colgan) certainly it will work for the RAA?
Regards,
xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx
I just wanted to drop you a brief note concerning your public comments made to the media and in testimony to public officials.
I find a couple of your public comments disingenous at best and outright lies at worst. I'm sure you have many years "in the business" as do I, so I won't waste time listing my extensive background in the Part 121 world.
First of all, you stated that regional airline pay is "fair and reasonable?" Certainly you are joking? I don't know if you've ever tried to live on regional airline pilot wages (I have) but I can assure you that they are neither fair nor reasonable, especially considering that the typical regional airline pilot has the debt associated with a 4 year degree and probably $50,000+ in flight training expenses. Further, if Colgan's compensation was "fair and reasonable," they would have been able to attract more qualified pilots than the pilots found in the cockpit of the fateful Buffalo crash that has attracted so much attention. You and I both know that there has been a large oversupply of pilots in this country for about 2 decades now and airlines like Colgan could have EASILY hired pilots with thousands of hours of experience had they simply paid a reasonable wage. Instead, they decided to work "on the cheap" and decided to hire and retain one pilot with a history of checkride failures and another with minimal experience. Yes, Mr. Cohen, pay at regionals like Colgan are so "fair and reasonable," that the two pilots in this example crash were the best, brightest, and most experienced the industry had to offer. Or perhaps, maybe you are mistaken, and only the inexperienced and those with "checkered" pasts are the only ones that accept employment at bottom-feeding airlines like Colgan with their "fair and reasonable" wages?
I also heard you state that there is "one level of safety" between the regionals and majors. Considering your experience in the business, cetainly that statement was a mistake as well? Again, you and I both know that there has NEVER been one level of safety between the majors and the regionals. There has been, perhaps, "in theory" but certainly not in reality. The hiring of extremely inexperienced pilots in order to "save a buck" aside, where is the RAA's public statements DEMANDING that all of its members have FOQA and ASRS programs, for example? Certainly if there was "one level of safety," the RAA could have demanded that years ago but again, you and I both know that will only happen when enough tombstones have been laid. I could go on and on, but I don't want to bore your secretary any further as I'm sure you are well insulated from the realities the rest of your constituent's employees deal with every day. One level of safety makes for nice soundbites though, huh Mr. Cohen?
In closing, I have a suggestion for the RAA. With all due respect, I think you are poor representative for your organization, considering the many statements you have made to the media and in testimony. I would suggest that the RAA do what many of your member airline do.....furlough you and replace you with someone fresh out of business college with little or no experience in the real world. Pay him $20,000 - $25,000 per year (certainly a fair and reasonable wage- I mean paramedics make that much!) and save your members some money on their membership fees. Certainly if it "works" for your member airlines (well, except for Colgan) certainly it will work for the RAA?
Regards,
xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx
Rez O. Lewshun
Save the Profession
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- Jan 19, 2004
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- 13,422
Guys... with respect you need a smack down......
Your airline career is determined by others such as Cohen and May (May is President of the ATA). If Cohen is saying this publicaly, then he is taking all of the PAC money given to him by the regional airlines that are members of the RAA and talking directly to congressmen about keeping pay low. Where do you think the regional airlines get the money to give to the RAA?
They get it from the revenue generated by pilots who work for fair and reasonable wages.
If you don't get it... here is some help.... the money that you generate for your company is used against you to keep your wages low. The more you are paid, the less money airlines have to lobby congress to keep you pay low. The harder you work at low wages, the more money is generated to be used against you.
Said simply.... you are paying for your political demise....
The RAA was formed in 1975 to lobby congress for regional airlines.
The ATA was formed in 1936 to lobby congress for legacy airlines.
ALPA was formed in 1931 to lobby congress. The ATA was formed in part to counter ALPA's effectiveness.....
The fight for your poltical career has and will be on CapHill......
You can be shocked and angry when tools like Cohen make statements... or you can get involved... understand how the game is played... and be a player instead of being played.....
Fight back or be a tool..... the choice is yours..
Greetings...Most large restaurant chains have their own mgt training program which is on the job type training and approximately 2 to 3 months long for someone with a degree or similar experience. My prior life was working for Darden restaurants (Olive Garden, Red Lobster, Bahama Breeze, Smokey Bones) and it is a good company with great benes. A person can also work their way up as an hourly employee which takes a lot longer. Promotions are of course merit based, but it would'nt take that long to advance, maybe 3 to 6 years or so depending on company growth. Take care
xjhawk
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xjhawk
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Contact
Regional Airline Association
2025 M Street, NW
Suite 800
Washington, DC 20036-3309
Tel: 202/367-1170
Fax: 202/367-2170
[email protected]
let the fun begin, tell these a holes what we think of them
Regional Airline Association
2025 M Street, NW
Suite 800
Washington, DC 20036-3309
Tel: 202/367-1170
Fax: 202/367-2170
[email protected]
let the fun begin, tell these a holes what we think of them
Poahi
Well-known member
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- Nov 19, 2005
- Posts
- 3,766
No one. He is not a spokesman for pilots. He is part of the RAA - Regional Airline Association. That is an airline trade organization, not a pilot advocacy group.
http://www.raa.org/
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