Possible Litigation on PSA property for Left Seats.

[WSurf]

Our LOA doesn't say anything about CEL pilots. So why are they here?

There are no CEL pilots there! Remember, Mainline ALPA made them APL Pilots!!

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

W

We need to stop this "ME" attitude and start thinking about "US".
This selfish thinking doesn't do any of us any good.

Conceptually, I agree.

Realistically, the old airline pilot mantra will rule as long as there exists more than one pilot group:

"I've got mine, fu*k you."

 

[ALGFLYR]

5 more in JAN class, with 38-40 more on the list waiting to come as the J4J's leave!

I seriousily doubt you will see any more former-CEL pilots at PSA. Republic has a class in Jan for 8 J4J positions. More than half of those will go down to the former-CEL seniority. There will be another class in Feb that will have 18 J4J CA positions. That will most likely allow every former CEL pilot once at MDA to work as a CA at Republic. Any subsequent class will most likely exhaust the APL list and allow anyone at Republic in an FO position to take a CA slot. The 170 and 175 is a much better aircraft to fly and they pay will be better than at PSA. They will also have better seniority at Republic and many will actually hold a line. Again, I doubt you will see any more APL pilots at PSA...

 

[ALGFLYR]

When we signed the J4J deal, the understanding was that a CEL pilot that goes to MDA and is furloughed, goes back to their previous carrier. That what it specifically says in the LOA and what was discussed prior to ratification. This is not the agreement that was ratified here..its an adulterated POS that the mainline MEC has decided to change on their own.

This is COMPLETELY untrue. There was NO change in LOA 91. While it was true there was a provision that a former CEL pilot "MAY" flow back to his former carrier, nothing said they HAD to go back. They could also exercise their right as an APL pilot to participate in a J4J position at any J4J carrier. The CEL pilots that went to PSA are doing so completly and legally within the confines of LOA 91 as signed by PSA. Facts are facts. You may choose to omit some of them to help explain your dis-satisfaction with the current situation, but making thinks up seemingly out of left field clearly shows you are completely clueless about the actual LOA 91 language, or are choosing to ignore certain parts... either way you are wrong...

 

[ALGFLYR]

What you are failing to understand is that the current "slotted seniority" agreement was never agreed to by the PSA pilots, the vote was against it but the MEC ratified the agreement anyway!! They said they had their reasons but whether they did or not the PSA pilots did not agree to this current deal.

The PSA agreed to the slotting provision, because without it, ALL the CRJ-700 CA slots would have been 100% APL pilots. Go ask the then PSA MEC what actually happened. They actually were looking out for the PSA pilots on that one. Would you rather have a slotted system or NO -700 positions??

 

[skydork]

Wern't pilots at PSA offered MDA positions just like everyone else? That's how you were supposed to get your number, Jack! I mean, Dork...

Here's your sign.....

OK smarta$$ why would anyone leave a wholly owned jet carrier for another wholly owned jet carrier. Some of the PSA guys probably would have gone to Mid-Atlantic if they knew it was "mainline", but it wasn't "mainline" until after they were sold. The PDT guys went to fly the 170 and lucked into a seniority number.

 

[paddlehigh]

sounds like a lawsuit to me, if midatlantic was mainline why were they hiring or bringing on non mainline pilots; well, probably because mainline said midatlantic wasn't mainline. Seems like mainline should pay some back pay to these poor furloughed pilots to me. PS I don't even want to bring up time served over hire date for recalls, what a joke. Do the right thing real mainline guys and stop bitching, waiting, watching, listening and get a lawyer among yourselves and getter done

 

[SRJ]

PSA signed J4J. Sounds like sour grapes to me. I wonder how many of those that are gripping were even employed when all of this J4J stuff went down?

Even if it was 50... A small price to pay for a long term career at mainline.

What a cliche. Why dont you stop trying top assume you know what is best for the PSA FO's who want to upgrade into the captain seats that are rightfully theirs and quit trying to jump to the conclusion that USAIR mainline is the best position for them. Maybe they want their 1000 hours leftseat time to move onto FREDEX or UPS and get out of the crappy USAIR Express system. Thats their choice, not someone like yourself.

 

[trainer8]

sounds like a lawsuit to me, if midatlantic was mainline why were they hiring or bringing on non mainline pilots; well, probably because mainline said midatlantic wasn't mainline. Seems like mainline should pay some back pay to these poor furloughed pilots to me. PS I don't even want to bring up time served over hire date for recalls, what a joke. Do the right thing real mainline guys and stop bitching, waiting, watching, listening and get a lawyer among yourselves and getter done

Done. In litigation....

T8

 

[trainer8]

When we signed the J4J deal, the understanding was that a CEL pilot that goes to MDA and is furloughed, goes back to their previous carrier. That what it specifically says in the LOA and what was discussed prior to ratification. This is not the agreement that was ratified here..its an adulterated POS that the mainline MEC has decided to change on their own.

Haber himself told me that he represented the CEL guy in a DFR lawsuit. I was told by an AAA MEC member that the threat of lawsuit was one of the reasons the CEL guys were given seniority numbers. To show that they actually cared....

A long term career at mainline??? Now they say we dont have a flowthrough and we are not even special enough to speak to the Mainline MEC. There are very few here that want to work at mainline. Most want to get as far away as possible.

I dont care what their DOH at PDT or ALG was. The CEL guys that are here are pieces of sh*t.

Well, there you have it....The AAA MEC was "threatened" with a lawsuit so they just caved in gave those guys seniority numbers...just like that.

Amazing....

T8

 

[trainer8]

We all got into this industry knowing about the seniority system. Start on the bottom and work your way up.
Everything gets better the higher you go.

We need to stop this "ME" attitude and start thinking about "US".
This selfish thinking doesn't do any of us any good.

Fair is playing by the rulebook. No reading between the lines. Our LOA doesn't say anything about CEL pilots. So why are they here?

Because they aren't CEL as it pertains to the context of the "LOA" you mention. They are APL. That is the only way they can get there.

T8

 

[ponder]

You know what would have been the balsiest move of all?
What if in 2004 a PSA F.O. went to MDA?
He could have stayed there a year and a half,
Come back to PSA as a Captain, and got a mainline
USAirways seniority number.

 

[d328pilot]

When the J4J program started I, along with every other pilots whos name appeared on the CEL list, was give 4 choices. I could stay at PSA, go to MDA as a captain only, go to MDA at the first available position, or go to only a Mainline position. If I chose to go to mainline only, then I would be offered a position at mainline based on my seniority on the CEL, NOT whether I went to MDA or not. So if you are a mainline pilot (which you are not), we have a lot of pilots who have been bypassed. I have chosen to go to mainline, and I am senior to some of the CEL guys here at PSA. Therefore, according to how the program was designed, I am senior to you at mainline, but I dont have a number....See the problem? I was at the meeting where the whole J4J program was ratified. This whole problem was specifically discussed and CEL guys who went to MDA were never supposed to be entitled to APL rights. One reason for the lawsuit is to get our numbers that those who were bypassed were entitled to. And to kick you out of our seats... You can keep saying you were entiled to APL rights but you are wrong. You were never supposed to, but you got lucky...Carma is a bi*ch though and it will be enjoyable to watch it come back and bite you.

 

[BenderGonzales]

"Carma is a bi*ch though and it will be enjoyable to watch it come back and bite you."

Oh brother. Gimme a break.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

What a cliche. Why dont you stop trying top assume you know what is best for the PSA FO's who want to upgrade into the captain seats that are rightfully theirs and quit trying to jump to the conclusion that USAIR mainline is the best position for them. Maybe they want their 1000 hours leftseat time to move onto FREDEX or UPS and get out of the crappy USAIR Express system. Thats their choice, not someone like yourself.

Those CA seats do rightfully belong to the PSA's FO's... When thier seniority can hold them. Tough luck about how the J4J thing worked out for them, but that ship has long since sailed. My whole point is this: The CEL-then APL guys did nothing you yourself would not have done had that opportunity been available to you. They took the gamble, won (but not without some pain along the way) and are now reaping the benefits of thier gamble. Your sour grapes attitude will do nothing to change that. It isn't like these small numbers mean a hill of beans to your advancement anyhow.

 

[ALGFLYR]

OK smarta$$ why would anyone leave a wholly owned jet carrier for another wholly owned jet carrier. Some of the PSA guys probably would have gone to Mid-Atlantic if they knew it was "mainline", but it wasn't "mainline" until after they were sold. The PDT guys went to fly the 170 and lucked into a seniority number.

This is not true. While it is true that every CEL pilot that went to MDA was from PDT, and none came from PSA, every PSA pilot had the option to go to MDA. When the very first CEL class went to MDA, it had already been decided that every MDA pilot would be on the Mainline seniority list. Had any PSA pilot done their homework, they would have realized they could have gone, with their PSA seniority, and would be added to the ML list. Why none of them didn't, I still can't figure that out. Long before the first CEL class, it was decided that everyone at MDA MUST be on the ML list. The AAA MEC would never want to set the precedence of allowing non-AAA pilots to fly aircraft on the AAA operating certificate. Every CEL pilot knew this going into MDA. Why this information didn't get to the PSA pilots, I don't know. Maybe you should ask your MEC...

 

[ALGFLYR]

This whole problem was specifically discussed and CEL guys who went to MDA were never supposed to be entitled to APL rights.

This is absolutly not true. The language in LOA 91 is very clear in this respect. It clearly states that any MDA pilot that was furloughed would be added to the APL list and entitled to all rights afforded to APL pilots under the J4J protocols...

 

[d328pilot]

No one went because there was no reason to. Why leave PSA as a Jet captain to go be a jet FO? We chose to bypass MDA and accept a mainline position when one was offered. Look at the usairways-express.com website. My preference says mainline only and I am senior to some MDA pilots. If you are a mainline pilot from the start, why was I bypassed? If they were mainline airplanes, why could'nt a FO in a group 2 aircraft bid left seat of the 170? MDA pilots were not put on the mainline seniority list until after all classes had been filled.

"The AAA MEC would never want to set the precedence of allowing non-AAA pilots to fly aircraft on the AAA operating certificate."

So they allow the precedence of putting new hires on the property when there are 1800 guys on furlough...Yeah thats much better.

 

[d328pilot]

This is absolutly not true. The language in LOA 91 is very clear in this respect. It clearly states that any MDA pilot that was furloughed would be added to the APL list and entitled to all rights afforded to APL pilots under the J4J protocols...

Not sure where you herd that from. Here is Attachment B, from LOA 91.


· Pilots employed by a Participating Wholly Owned Carrier who become MDA pilots or US Airways pilots under this Attachment B, may flow back to their respective Participating Wholly Owned Carriers. US Airways pilots employed by MDA, if furloughed from MDA, may displace into positions at Participating Wholly Owned Carriers in order of their seniority as US Airways pilots in accordance with the Flow Through Letter of Agreement (LOA #_tbd__) to be agreed to by the Company and the Association.

Why is there a distinction between CEL pilots and US Airways Pilots? It seems very clear to me. A CEL pilot goes back to their previous job and a "real" US Airways pilot has APL rights. That is what PSA agreed to and we never ratified a change to the agreement. (or the LOA that is to be determined). If you were entitled to APL rights it would specifically say so. But it specifically says you go back to PDT. This was a four party agreement and just because the mainline MEC changed it doesnt mean we, at PSA, did.

 

[ponder]

Our Carma ran over your Dogma.