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Notice: The preceding was the mindless rantings of a poor misguided soul.
Not as mindless and misguided as our "friend" Mr. Kempa...

It's people like him that force the rest of us to explain the truth.
Pax: Why can't we just go? Do we really need to sit here and wait to be de-iced? Aren't our engines strong enough for us to power through the ice? I read in the paper..."
Us: <thinking> Dam you Kempa! Now I have to try and explain aerodynamics in a sentence or two without making the pax feel like an idiot for believing what they read in the paper.
...or something along those lines.
 
"Calculator" is spelled wrong on his site (the page that comes up when you click the posted link.
I don't know that I would trust a company to operate aircraft safely if they have spelling mistakes on their website (the tool that is supposed to attract customers)...who knows what other mistakes they may make.
 
Some brokers are tools. The ones with some sort of flying background are the worst. Some of my best broker customers are actually clueless compared to the "educated" broker population that for one reason or another bagged on pro-flying careers. Maybe, cause, THEY SUCKED AT IT!

Any, who. It is interesting everyone is focusing on this de-ice neglect. Anyone know if the aircraft was safely tucked in a warm hangar prior to loading and departure? Giant, Room temperature aircraft in 30+/- Celsius falling snow. Good for atleast 15-20 minutes AND/OR Pre-Takeoff Contamination Check? No? How heavy was the snow falling?

I don't recommend this, but I can neither confirm nor deny that this infact occurred while I was onboard an aircraft either as passenger or other wise to witness a very interesting phenomenon...

(unknown persons/location(s)) A certain snow falls very light and fluffy in such a way that you would expect accumulations on horizontal(wings, back, tail, nose) surfaces to "blow" off of these surfaces as forward momentum increases airflow on perpetual takeoff. However, what you will find is the snow becomes compact aft of the leading edges and in effect "reshapes" the top surface of the wing. The forward portions are compacted by the boundary layer airflow, while the snow surface toward the rear will remain "rough". Deflecting control surfaces downward will enable gravity to remove the snow from those portions leaving a nice cliff like formation on the rear of the wing to further disrupt the 'smooth' airflow over the wing. Remember, lift is created by the top particles 'rushing' over the wing to meet the particles traveling on the bottom of the wing in the relatively same place they both began before this wing came along and nailed them in the arse. Aerodynamics 101. Ever wondered why sometimes, no matter how fast you drive your car, that snow on the roof and hood you were too, lazy/cold to sweep off is still there when you get to the Piggly Wiggly for the 1/2 price Egg Nogg special? Nearly identical concept.

Spend the $30 per gallon for deice or put the plane in the hangar. Don't screw with the air flow particles or they will screw with you.

Click-It or Ticket! Seat belts are the law. On the road and on the runway. Flight Attendants, too!. It is unfortunate the demise of the pilot and we pray the CoPilot comes through. That is the nature of the business, planes usually crash cockpit first. I speculate the FA was not seat belted and all evidence indicates the 14 yr old too, was unbuckled. I can not even attempt empathy for the family and loss of a child in these conditions, wouldof, couldof, shouldof "told him to put it on." Belts and seats are designed for survivability, Sioux City and UAL proved that with an DC-10 some years ago. Without the FA, Captain and an out-of-commissioned FO, there was no one left to direct evacuation. This could have turned out much worse. Thank God for a quick thinking young and apt individual (21yr old son) heroicly taking advantage of the seperated fuselage to extracate, evacuate his father and return in search of his brother. The trauma that man will carry for the rest of his life unable to save his brother lying unknowlingly beneath the wreckage. I pray healing for him comes quickly.

100-1/2
 
jetbluedog said:
Saw this in another category. It is from today's Chicago Tribune. HOW MANY OF YOU BIG WIG CORP. PILOTS WOULD MAKE A STATEMENT LIKE THIS???






"But Dave Kampa, a pilot and president of Denver Air, a charter aircraft referral service, .....






God help me if I am ever employed by a screwed-up, arrogant, hot-head like Kampa!
Aircraft charter brokers are the new scumbags of the industry. Sentient, Blue Star, David Kempa and the like are dirtbags.


They own nothing, the are liable for nothing, and are responsible for nothing. They do not even have a charter certificate. The only thing that they own is a phone book that they use to represent themselves as a chater company. They then call charter companies, beat them down on price for the promise of increased business, and charge Jonny Q the same price, or more that they would pay if the dealt with the charter company themselves.

If you want to see the charter industry get any worse, just start flying for these dirtbags. Next time you ask for a raise and hear the proverbal .... "I would love to, but times are tough ....." ask your D.O. how much in margins they gave away to these guys.

Keep our business professional, just say no to dirt bags.
 
I will probably be flamed for this, but oh well.

When I was a new-hire Captain at one of the large fractionals. I was talking with one of the Snr Challenger Capts about de-icing. My previous background had been with the regionals and I was asking this guy about how to co-ordinate de-icing with an FBO. He actually said, "we don't de-ice as much as the airlines do, it makes the airplanes dirty, and the customers get annoyed for having been delayed". Hmmmmm...
 
fogrunner said:
...He actually said, "we don't de-ice as much as the airlines do, it makes the airplanes dirty, and the customers get annoyed for having been delayed". Hmmmmm...
It's probably true that non-121 operators won't de-ice as often. However, I question the judgement of a flight crew that allows "dirt" or the fear of annoying their passengers to enter into the de-ice or not question. I know that I've set on many airliners while we waited for our turn at the de-ice pad. In several cases, from my position (one of those comfy coach seats), the wings appeared to be clean, it was not snowing, the taxiways were snowpacked and the runway was clean; but they de-iced anyway. Under similar conditions, I would not have de-iced our jet - there would have been no point in doing so.

'Sled
 
I've sent professor Dave an E-mail, requesting that he add a course on "aerodynamic bullying techniques and specifics" to his services. I'll let you know how it turns out?.
 
Before we destroy this guy's reputation, remember one thing: He was talking to a member of the press over the phone. This reporter is not paid to take what someone says and just meekly put it into a story, because if it is bland or otherwise not what the reporter wants to hear, its not going to make a splash and the story ends up on page R78, right underneath the used appliances want ads. They are paid to sell newspapers, and to merely be near the same zip code as the truth.

A close family member of mine is in the nuclear industry and he learned long ago that reporters A) Don't know squat about how nuclear energy is generated, distrubuted or even basic math... and B) They will flat out lie to make a story sparkle. Why do you think the newspapers print corrections in very remote portions of the paper?
 
Uncle Sparky said:
I've sent professor Dave an E-mail, requesting that he add a course on "aerodynamic bullying techniques and specifics" to his services. I'll let you know how it turns out?.
Heheheh! I've bullyed my way through a crowded pub, but never in a plane.
 
Last edited:
WHat happens when you fax 10 pages of black construction paper?
 
"Bully through the ice"????????? Does the challenger have a wing similar to the Cl65? You know, the wing that maint. has to check for too much insect contamination in the summer?
 
I'm curious as to why a paper from CHICAGO is calling a small operator in DENVER to get a quote for a story?

In Dave's defense, there are morons in all aspects of aviation. I used to work as an aero engineer for Boeing. An acquaintance of mine was heavily invovled in the 737 rudder investigation. When Boeing did their PR/dog-n-pony show for the airlines in 1995 regarding the crashes and their analyses, one chief pilot at a major 121 operator was commenting on one of the accidents. His statement was shocking - "Those guys couldn't have stalled the wing - they were doing over 200 knots!" Makes you wonder how someone like that gets to be a chief pilot at a large airline when he doesn't even remember that load factor affects stalling speed...
 
Guitar Guy said:
I'm curious as to why a paper from CHICAGO is calling a small operator in DENVER to get a quote for a story?
proximity to the crash site( maybe aerodynamic principles ARE different in CO and a local call to a Chicago operator wouldn't provide accurate insight ;) ).
 
Sad but true

Uncle Sparky said:
proximity to the crash site( maybe aerodynamic principles ARE different in CO and a local call to a Chicago operator wouldn't provide accurate insight ;) ).
I guess an unknowledgeable source closer to the crash site is better than an unknowledgeable source closer to home.
 
LXJ31 said:
Before we destroy this guy's reputation, remember one thing: He was talking to a member of the press over the phone.

HA. The heck with that. Destroy him. In fact, it should be posted daily...sent to the FAA, NBAA, the rest of the trade orgs., etc...

Based on this loosers comments, he deserves to have what ever reputation he had, flushed down the toilet. His attitued with kill more if we let him.

I myself will not loose ONE BIT of sleep should this guy NEVER broker another charter trip again...EVER.

Got that!
 

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