POLAR vs. ATLAS

[B747-300]

cfire:

Thanks for posting the letter. The letter makes it clear that the ball is back in the Polar MEC's court. We can only hope they'll do the right thing, just this once.

 

[cfire]

Flying Polar routes:

Yes, Atlas does some Polar routes. That falls under the "Alliance Agreement" in both contracts. Polar grieved it and a lost it badly in arbitration. Previously addressed in the above attached VARS. So much so, that during the Polar strike, the judge said we had to fly Polar cargo if Atlas chose to do so.

Another little fact, Polar operates a number of South American flights that are Atlas routes. I believe those have now have been sold to Polar or just wet leased to them. I'll have to check up on it.

Due to Polar screwing up the Alliance grievance despite ALPA advise not to continue it, the management at Atlas may be able to use Atlas wet leasing and then furlough at Polar.

Of course Polar didn't have any heart problem accepting four of our Atlas aircraft and watch us furlough while they hired (not from us BTW) off the street. Not one Atlas guy I am aware of was hired at Polar while we furloughed during our contract negotiations. That was addressed in the earlier posted vars message.

 

[weasel_lips]

Flying Polar routes:

Yes, Atlas does some Polar routes. That falls under the "Alliance Agreement" in both contracts. Polar grieved it and a lost it badly in arbitration. Previously addressed in the above attached VARS. So much so, that during the Polar strike, the judge said we had to fly Polar cargo if Atlas chose to do so.

Another little fact, Polar operates a number of South American flights that are Atlas routes. I believe those have now have been sold to Polar or just wet leased to them. I'll have to check up on it.

Due to Polar screwing up the Alliance grievance despite ALPA advise not to continue it, the management at Atlas may be able to use Atlas wet leasing and then furlough at Polar.

Of course Polar didn't have any heart problem accepting four of our Atlas aircraft and watch us furlough while they hired (not from us BTW) off the street. Not one Atlas guy I am aware of was hired at Polar while we furloughed during our contract negotiations. That was addressed in the earlier posted vars message.

Thanks for answering.

From what you stated above it sounds like Atlas did some flying of Polar freight during the strike. Is that correct?

WL

 

[Classicdriver]

Thanks for answering.

From what you stated above it sounds like Atlas did some flying of Polar freight during the strike. Is that correct?

WL

Nope, don't go there. Atlas flies Polar freight under Polar call signs. Just like we fly Emirates freight under their call sign. There were no Polar flights or call signs after the strike started. All Polar planes were grounded. Polar was successful in shutting down the airline, day one....and no one cared.

Thats what pissed them off. Their MEC had promised that within seven days, Atlas World Wide Holdings would be shut down...didn't happen. They then panicked, and decided to attack Atlas. No one else, just Atlas. All sorts of airlines were flying what may have been their freight, but they wanted to hurt just Atlas.

Atlas crews were checking the manifests for Polar airline number. I know what the number is, because I was looking for it.....DO YOU??? Polar Cargo Offices around the world closed down, excepting no freight...period.

Now, where that freight went after the offices closed down, no one knows. Just like when a passenger airline goes on strike, the passengers head in all directions. I'm sure some of it ended up on NW out of Narita, and FedEx out of China. If the freight forwarders don't bring it to Polar to ship....it never was Polar cargo. But no Polar folks were messing with NW or FedEx or UPS. Just Atlas.

UPS stays at the same hotel in ANC, crossed the picket line in downtown ANC. No kicking of their vans. Ask one of them what your airline number is. I'm positive they don't know, because they didn't care. No one cared, except Atlas guys. But then Polar had to have someone to blame for the lack of response from AAWH, so they chose to take it out on Atlas, the closest thing they had to friends in this battle.

 

[weasel_lips]

Nope, don't go there. Atlas flies Polar frieght under Polar call signs. Just like we fly Emirates freight under their call sign. There were no Polar flights or call signs after the strike started. Atlas crews were checking the manafests for Polar airline number. I know what the number is, because I was looking for it.....DO YOU??? Polar Cargo Offices around the world closed down, excepting no freight...period.

I did not intend to "go there"..... I was asking for more information based upon what you said above.

I am interested in what is going on because I hope to interview with Polar or Atlas this spring when hiring resumes.

Thank You.

 

[Classicdriver]

I did not intend to "go there"..... I was asking for more information based upon what you said above.

I am interested in what is going on because I hope to interview with Polar or Atlas this spring when hiring resumes.

Thank You.

Then, sorry about that. But it sounded like you were in the process of going somewhere with it.

How does the fact that we were flying their cargo before the strike have anything to do with after the strike started??

BTW, either airline is a good choice. I'm biased, but both have good people.

 

[heilhaavir]

Cfire,
Good info thks. Didn't see your name "CCd" on the letter though. How did you get a hold of it?

 

[furloughfodder]

cfire (or should I call you Tom),

I clicked the link but all I got was a strange website with an unusual picture of a lady... she seemed to be quite uncomfortable.

Are you sure this is the correct link?

http://pws.prserv.net/usinet.cpt747/

 

[cfire]

Thanks for answering.

From what you stated above it sounds like Atlas did some flying of Polar freight during the strike. Is that correct?

WL

No, Atlas didn't fly Polar routes or cargo. I was just pointing out that the Temporary Restraining Order (renewed and expanded 3 times) stopped all of our simpathy action for Polar.

ALPA national lawyers also said that the TRO would also force us to fly Polar Routes and Cargo due to the "Aliance Agreement" section of Polar and Atlas respective contracts if the company wanted us to. The company chose not to do that however.

The judge however did uphold our right to not cross a legal picket line. What was a legal picket line in reality vs what the Polar group thought was a legal picket line definitely were not the same. The ANC Airport Authority thought the same way since they booted the Polar picketing guys off the airport at one point.

Here is the first TRO IN PDF FORMAT

furloughfodder cfire (or should I call you Tom),

I clicked the link but all I got was a strange website with an unusual picture of a lady... she seemed to be quite uncomfortable.

Are you sure this is the correct link?

Yes, My name is Tom. I think you already knew that though. Yes that is the index page to one of my test sites. Note to moderator, I did not publish it here. I only published direct links to text documents.

I make a lot of money, more than I do flying for Atlas as a captain doing clustered HPC and web sites. Did you want her number or something?

 

[furloughfodder]

Tom,

Well good then. You know me, I know you. It's too bad we didn't meet under different circumstances. With your knowledge of Linux and Clusters, and mine of Unix and Solaris, we could form a pretty good team.

Maybe we will be able to put all this BS behind us and 'just get along'. But until then, here we are.

ff

 

[rtmcfi]

Well, it looks like Mgmt tactics are working..........

If you guys can't all get over the past, and work together you are all sunk.

 

[cfire]

Well, it looks like Mgmt tactics are working..........

If you guys can't all get over the past, and work together you are all sunk.

Your right. Management did their job well.

 

[cfire]

Well, it looks like Mgmt tactics are working..........

If you guys can't all get over the past, and work together you are all sunk.

Your right. Management did their job well.

Atlas ALPA had extended the hand of help and reconciliation a number of times, despite a long list of broken agreements by Polar. Each time our hand came back missing more fingers. When do you say enough is enough?

Continual reports of Polar abuses to Atlas crews mostly from the cities of Shanghai and Seoul where both crew forces are housed in the same hotel just reinforces it. The general attitude from Atlas crews is "lets hope Atlas management doesn't screw up the pending sale of Polar." Let them be someone elses headache.

Judging from the last Atlas VARS (Click Here for the MP3 Audio )we will be attempting yet another reconciliation. Very suprising considering how Bobb Henderson conducted himself and talked about us at the Executive Board meeting. I wonder how many more missing fingers/broken promises will happen this time.

I have a copy of the Polar VARS, but I don't have the permission to post it. Doesn't seem very descriptive of what really happened at the Executive Board.

 

[B747-300]

What really strikes me is the Polar MEC's total disconnect with reality. They have the audacity to speak of unity and a common enemy at the same time they file charges against 1/3 of Atlas crewmembers. And then they wonder why Atlas pilots are angry and the Atlas MEC responds harshly. Duh!​

The Polar MEC has no support at ALPA National. Maybe one day soon the Polar membership-at-large will wake-up and demand the truth from their "leadership".

"First they cry, and then they lie"

 

[furloughfodder]

Looks like World might Strike! Fools!

Well, it looks like World Airways pilots rejected the company's final contract offer.

"The company is very disappointed that a fair and equitable agreement could not be reached," said Charlie McDonald, chief operating officer. "We believe we had a very attractive offer on the table, including annual wage increases, continued profit sharing, a signing bonus, benefits improvements, work-rule improvements and a job security proposal."

It looks like you guys now have another pilot group to attack! The gall of those World Airways pilots! Going on STRIKE!?! They should be ashamed of themselves! You Atlas pilots need to set them straight!!!

Now go over to their thread and tell them how stupid they are for striking! Why didn't they just take the company's final offer?

 

[heilhaavir]

You crack me up ff! That was pretty good

 

[Whale Rider]

Way to go ff!!!!!:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

 

[cfire]

furloughfodder

It looks like you guys now have another pilot group to attack! The gall of those World Airways pilots! Going on STRIKE!?! They should be ashamed of themselves! You Atlas pilots need to set them straight!!!

Now go over to their thread and tell them how stupid they are for striking! Why didn't they just take the company's final offer?

Ohhh!! You sooooo funnnnny furloughfodderson.

Will Polar be flying Brand New Routes in your own minds again? Just like Polar was willing to do to Atlas crews 15 minutes prior to the Atlas strike and ask for relief from the struck work rules (5 to be exact with Atlas aircraft on Atlas ACMI Contracts) ? That short term memory loss is a bad thing. Maybe you should stop drinking/smoking soooo much. You really should pass the pipe onwards to the next Polar guy and get a dose of reality.

I, along with rest of the Atlas crews wish them well and support them 100% as we did Polar to the extent of our contract and law provided. We really appreciated World's support in the past and their notification to us that the Polar MEC Chairman was trying to backdoor scablist Atlas amoung all ALPA carriers.

That is a lot more than Polar ever gave us. All Polar ever demonstrated was a willingness to fly our struck work.

We have contacted the World MEC with our jumpseat info to get crews out also. I even put it up again over on their thread.

Has Polar MEC done anything? As a matter of fact, has Polar done anything for anyone else when they needed it besides seek relief from their struck work rules? Not!

Ooops, I am wrong. We did have one Polar guy show up at a Atlas Picket in Purchase once and one in MIA prior to end of our countdown.

Without even having to looking it up, I know of several Atlas guys in ANC that walked your strike line in support and ended up on your scab list after a court ordered return to work order. Of course your Polar MEC said that the judge was wrong also. I won't even go into the number of Atlas guys that I have on record that showed up for the pickets in Purchase for Polar's benefit prestrike picketing.

Do you have anything to back up what you say? I have gone out of my way to do so. So much so, that I almost welcome a subpena to release what has been asked of me to keep to myself in the interest of solidarity.

cfire

 

[DHC2 Driver]

Point Made

It looks like you guys now have another pilot group to attack! The gall of those World Airways pilots! Going on STRIKE!?! They should be ashamed of themselves! You Atlas pilots need to set them straight!!!

Now go over to their thread and tell them how stupid they are for striking! Why didn't they just take the company's final offer?

FF
You actually make our point for us. The strike was Polar's. We flew no polar airplanes, attempted to fly no polar freight, flew no polar call signs, and honored the Polar picket lines when they were in the proper place and when the judge allowed us to?

It was not an Atlas strike, it was Polar's so why did you want us to support you? Why did you only picket Atlas flights? I know why. It was because your leadership has an agenda and they knew that to accomplish this they MUST involve the Atlas pilots in their strike.

I guess we will see how well the Polar line pilots honor the World strike. Will you be climbing in to the lower lobe to check for world cargo? Do you even know who World is flying for? Do you know what their freight codes are? I bet your leadership doesn't even know that World is going to strike, and probably has no plans or instructions for you all.

Atlas pilots didn't EVER tell you not to strike. That was your choice. Where we got a little upset was when you called us scabs for flying OUR airplanes and going to OUR training center. Or perhaps you wanted the Atlas pilots to violate a federal judges order and get fired so you could take our jobs. Did you even know that this was your MEC chairs agenda?

D2

 

[DHC2 Driver]

Point Made

Cfire
You are sooo correct. Everything you said - and more is right on the money.

 

[furloughfodder]

Maybe we should do these one at a time. Let's start with this:

1. The Judge upheld the position that Atlas pilots DID NOT have to cross our legal picket lines. I can post the ruling here if your memory is that short (or selective). Your MEC Vice and the Company are the ones who told you to cross the lines (which a small fraction of you did). I have a feeling the 400+ of your guys who refused to cross our lines are not the ones posting here in this forum.

What say you to this?

 

[DHC2 Driver]

So what is a "legal" picket line

Sorry but a picket line is defined as a line of employees "outside the business that they usually work for" who are attempting to keep replacement workers from entering the property as well as let the general public know that they are having a problem with their management and "asking" the general public not to shop at that company. A "line" is further defined as at least two people (points) so one guy standing at the corner of Jewel Lake Road and International Airport Road is not a "line."

What part of picketing the Marriot Hotel in ANC do you consider legal?

Additionally, even though the majority of us considered the Marriott picket line illegal, we did not cross it after the MEC asked us (actually TOLD us) not to. And as far as 400+ guys not crossing, It woud have been hard to get more than a few to cross even had they wanted to, as you were picketing a hotel. For instance, it would have been hard for me (and almost 100 others) to cross the line at the Marriott as I (we) live in ANC. See how stupid that line was. Why didn't you picket like real trade unionists? It sure would have been easier to support you. Instead you did it like a bunch of whimps; only putting up your line when an Atlas airplane was coming to town and only at a hotel which Atlas immediately stopped using. In my book you guys and your leadership looked retarded and I was embarassed to have told others that I supported you.

Ok so that is number 1 - bring on the rest. They have all already been answered many times in this forum and others but on the off chance that your psycho leadership has scrambled your brains we will attempt to answer them again. Once again, you don't seem to realize that crossing the Polaroid line does NOT make one a scab. It is simply that one has decided not to HONOR another carriers picket line. (kind of like the NWA pilots crossing the NWA mechanics picket line). The ONLY way someone can be a scab is if they flew Polar airplanes on Polar routes - ie. doing the Polar job. This would have been impossible as there were no Polar airplanes flying and essentially no Polar jobs available as the company locked you out and shut down your flying.

 

[furloughfodder]

This can go on forever....

---------------------------
PICKET LINE: Picketing is a form of non-violent resestance in which people congregate outside a place of work or location where an event is taking place and attempt to dissuade others from going in ("crossing the picket line"). It can have a number of aims, but is generally to put pressure on the party targeted to meet particular demands. This pressure is achieved by harming the business through loss of custom and negative publicity, or by discouraging or preventing workers from entering the site and thereby preventing the business from operating normally.


Picketing is a common tactic used by trade unions during strikes, who will try to prevent dissident members of the union, members of other unions and ununionised workers from working. Those who cross the picket line and work despite the strike are known as scabs.


--------------------------


Your union defined 'legal picket line' for you very early on. Even though Caputo tried to tell you otherwise. Permits were obtained for each and every location we picketed. THEY WERE ALL LEGAL PICKET LINES.

My only question is, why whould you not want to support us? Why did you try to do everything in your power to sneak around the lines? Laying down on the floors of the crew van? Blacking out the windows with cardboard?


The only reason I can think of for not supporting us is some sort of revenge for something you believed happened years ago. But that is a whole other area most Atlas guys need educating on.

 

[PCL_128]

My only question is, why whould you not want to support us? Why did you try to do everything in your power to sneak around the lines?

That's what I keep wondering. All I see from Atlas posters are excuses for why they could cross lines. Why not look for reasons not to cross lines? I would be looking for any possible excuse to not cross. It's my understanding that the Polar MEC has video and pictures of Atlas crews driving by Polar picketers and making profane gestures and such right before crossing the lines. If true, that is absolutely pathetic and shameful. The Polar pilots seem to have good reason to be so upset.

 

[DHC2 Driver]

Well lets take these in order

PICKET LINE: Picketing is a form of non-violent resestance in which people congregate outside a place of work or location where an event is taking place and attempt to dissuade others from going in ("crossing the picket line"). It can have a number of aims, but is generally to put pressure on the party targeted to meet particular demands. This pressure is achieved by harming the business through loss of custom and negative publicity, or by discouraging or preventing workers from entering the site thereby preventing the business from operating normally.


Picketing is a common tactic used by trade unions during strikes, who will try to prevent dissident members of the union, members of other unions and ununionised workers from working. Those who cross the picket line and work despite the strike are known as scabs.

1. YOU WERE NOT OUTSIDE THE PLACE OF WORK.
2. You were only targeting Atlas pilots, not other unions such as FedEx, UPS etc.
3. Atlas pilots were working for Atlas, NOT polar so why would that help you.

Your union defined 'legal picket line' for you very early on. Even though Caputo tried to tell you otherwise. Permits were obtained for each and every location we picketed. THEY WERE ALL LEGAL PICKET LINES.

actually not true. There were struck work rules that the polaroids mec defined for themselves that NO ONE else agreed on. Our MEC did not tell us to stop at a picket line until the Courts defined it. In fact there was a two day period between the issuance of the TRO and the judges refinement of it that we HAD to cross a picket line - ANY picket line.

My only question is, why whould you not want to support us? Why did you try to do everything in your power to sneak around the lines?

Well most of us initially supported you until it became obvious that you were only targeting Atlas pilots with your strike. This is due to the agenda of Bob F. Bobb H. and Robin H., all from the same era of Polar hiring and all with the same agenda.

Bottom line is this - If you had put up a decent picket line outside of AAWH operations buildings or even airport entry ways for the entire time, not just when Atlas planes were inbound or outbound, we would have supported you en-mass. In fact many Atlas pilots walked your picket line in the first two or three days until Bob F.'s diatribes and actions so alienated them that they quit going. We supported you MUCH more than you EVER supported us. Duane Woerth and EVERY OTHER ALPA MEC recognized it. The fact that you don't is evidence of the hold that your psychotic MEC and negotiating committee has over you.

The only reason I can think of for not supporting us is some sort of revenge for something you believed happened years ago. But that is a whole other area most Atlas guys need educating on.

The day you can educate us on the antics of Bob F.s administration there will be snowballs in he11.

 

[DHC2 Driver]

That's what I keep wondering. All I see from Atlas posters are excuses for why they could cross lines. Why not look for reasons not to cross lines? I would be looking for any possible excuse to not cross. It's my understanding that the Polar MEC has video and pictures of Atlas crews driving by Polar picketers and making profane gestures and such right before crossing the lines. If true, that is absolutely pathetic and shameful. The Polar pilots seem to have good reason to be so upset.

Well see my above post regarding why. WE initially supported them, even had one guy fired for not crossing their line outside of the training center. Actually polar might have pictures of some vans. I know that they physically attacked a van with another airline crew in it thinking it was Atlas. Atlas managment has plenty of pictures of their shamefull actions down at the Marriott. They were acting like a bunch of retards in the middle of town - not at the airport where they should have been. (oh yeah i forgot - the airport kicked them out due to their lunacy). I reiterate - if they had put up a proper and decent picket line like they should have and manned it 24/7 like they should have and not targeted only Atlas pilots they would have had our full and undying support. Instead they targeted individual Atlas pilots, calling thier rooms and going to thier homes and upsetting their families. THIS is "absolutely shameful and pathetic" and is the biggest reason that their support eroded so quickly.

I don't personally know anyone who made any gestures at any polar picket line unless it was right after Bob F. started his BS in ANC. There were some pretty pissed off Atlas pilots after that and it is no wonder they didn't show up for more picketing.

 

[bman]

I have to admit that I think that the whole idea of struck feight is rather ludicrous if you think about it! I'm mean come on when NWA is on strike does Delta say I won't carry your pax? How quickly do you think some hard nosed ALPA cat would lose his job never to be hired again if he or his union unilaterally pulled that?! Why is it any different with freight?

This is why to Polar strike was so useless. I respect their right to do so, but did any of them stop to consider what leverage they had? They are trying to portray this asthough the Atlas pilots stabbed them in the back and that is just nonsense. Everytime one of them comes on here and says you shouldn't have gone to work in support of our unilateral job action it makes me wanna puke.

No one flew your airplanes no one crossed your picket line to operate your flights. Anyone who say that we should have not have gone to work to feed our families to support the Polar strike should cite each time the did the same. Not one of you can site any incident to the contrary. As a matter of fact the Polar Pilot group has shown great willingness to take jobs from Atlas. Polar is/has been operating A/C that where on ATLAS's certificate prior to the Polar Acquisition.

As I have said before you played your cards and got what you got now let's move on!

 

[weasel_lips]

I have to admit that I think that the whole idea of struck feight is rather ludicrous if you think about it! I'm mean come on when NWA is on strike does Delta say I won't carry your pax? How quickly do you think some hard nosed ALPA cat would lose his job never to be hired again if he or his union unilaterally pulled that?! Why is it any different with freight?

This is why to Polar strike was so useless. I respect their right to do so, but did any of them stop to consider what leverage they had? They are trying to portray this asthough the Atlas pilots stabbed them in the back and that is just nonsense. Everytime one of them comes on here and says you shouldn't have gone to work in support of our unilateral job action it makes me wanna puke.

No one flew your airplanes no one crossed your picket line to operate your flights. Anyone who say that we should have not have gone to work to feed our families to support the Polar strike should cite each time the did the same. Not one of you can site any incident to the contrary. As a matter of fact the Polar Pilot group has shown great willingness to take jobs from Atlas. Polar is/has been operating A/C that where on ATLAS's certificate prior to the Polar Acquisition.

As I have said before you played your cards and got what you got now let's move on!

Your not even off probation and your talking like that? Do you have any opinions of your own or do you just assume those of whom you fly with? It does not seem like you have been at Atlas long enough to speak on terms of self experience.

 

[cfire]

The only reason I can think of for not supporting us is some sort of revenge for something you believed happened years ago. But that is a whole other area most Atlas guys need educating on.

Lets see, how do I remember it going down that night about 15 minutes before Atlas was going on strike as one of the actual players.

1. Bob Fell, then Polar MEC Chairman, calls and ALPA lawyer Everet Barber answers the call for Atlas MEC Dave Bourne. He hands the phone to to Dave. Bob Fell requests relief from the previously agreed upon struck work rules between us for 5 Atlas A/C in his words " for 5 brand new ACMI contracts!" Those contracts later turned out to be 5 Atlas ACMI contracts with China Airlines.

2. A few choice words are exchanged between them.

3. Dave B. calls the strike committee which I'm on and we now have to focus on Polar flying our A/C and ACMI contracts. We were not very concerned before about Polar since we had mutually agreed upon struck work rules and were focusing on 3 other non union carriers to start our flying. Now we were very focused on Polar scabbing our A/C and ACMI contracts.

4. I call Dave Bourne back directly so that I have the nonparaphrased second hand version. I have a number of very loud and choice words about Polar while standing on my picketing site soon to be strike line in DFW with my other picketing volunteers.

5. We get confirmation from an employee sympathetic to the union in Purchase that 5 A/C have recieved compliance checks for the transfer to Polar.

6. I call my other picket site coordinators and site observers at LAX, ANC, AMS, MIA, DFW, ORD and JFK that Polar is now at high risk to crossing and actually flying our A/C and ACMI contracts. I attempt to gather more volunteers to picket Polar sites now. Previoulsy, that would have been an illegal secondary picket. Now it wasn't since we had verbal confirmation that they were planning on flying our A/C and Contracts.

The rest is pretty much public knowledge. The above is verifiable by a third party ALPA National's lawyer Everit Barber who was present. BTW, I believe Barber is your councils contract administrator also.

Of course Bob Fell is certainly saying something different when no one is there to challenge him on the facts at the hotel breakfast table in front of his own crews.

Ran into Bob Fell in MIA last April/May 2005. Within just a few moments Fell said we have to put the past behind us and join together for Polar's upcoming release from mediation against the Atlas management team. I said that would have been a good move when Atlas was going on strike. Didn't have much to say after that and neither did he.

We would have been much more effective as a team instead Polar trying to be the last carrier standing at the expense of the Atlas crews.

Did I support Polar-YES? I did despite my personal feelings about them and helped coordinate a couple of there pickets prior to their strike. Kind of shocked that they only started setting up their strike center two weeks before the release. We were set up 9 months ahead of ours for picketing and strike.

Hopefully the next airline/pilot group that buys you has better luck.

Some of the more recent documents/MP3's recently released on current events if you missed them from before CLICK HERE

 

[heilhaavir]

Cfire, any chance of posting BF's letter concerning what you just mentioned? You can PM me if you wish.