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Polar Air Cargo, 30 days out from possible strike.

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I agree B-atch. Luckily this guy doesn't represent most Atlas people.

There is one in every crowd.
 
I'd strike if my company tried to reduce my pay, my retirement or my medical benefits.

Would I strike at a time of fierce competition, record pilot unemployment and record high fuel prices because my (recently bankrupt) company wouldn't give me a 31% increase in pay? NO WAY! What you guys are doing is one of the dumbest things in union history. I think most rank-and-file members would have taken the 10.5% and returned to the negotiating table in 18 months.

You have the support of the Atlas MEC, not the line pilots. Big difference!
 
Since the Polar pilot's are only asking for the same pay rates you ALREADY have that supposed 10.5% pay raise would in fact BE about a 20% pay CUT for you (not including the 60% cut in retirement contributions it would be).

The company has enjoyed paying the Polar pilots at their old rates for the two and a half years negotiations have dragged on with no retro pay back to the ammendable date making for quite a windfall for the company already.

As for negotiating again in 18 months you are ignoring the fact that what would be negotiated would be a Transition agreement which is not a normal section 6 process. The transition agreement has MANDATORY BINDING ARBITRATION at the end of it.

What makes you think the company will have completed your section 6 negotiations by that time? All the company has to do is string you along until the Transition Agreement to force you and Polar into binding arbitration and then ask the Arbiter to decide between the contract with your current pay rates and the (New) Polar one with 20% LOWER rates. Even if you retained your higher rates of pay you are looking at 5-10 years of steadily eroding wages due to inflation.

You are a demonstration of the problem that has plagued pilot groups for years. You are focused on today and the past while Management is planning 5-10 years ahead.




B747-300 said:
I'd strike if my company tried to reduce my pay, my retirement or my medical benefits.

Would I strike at a time of fierce competition, record pilot unemployment and record high fuel prices because my (recently bankrupt) company wouldn't give me a 31% increase in pay? NO WAY! What you guys are doing is one of the dumbest things in union history. I think most rank-and-file members would have taken the 10.5% and returned to the negotiating table in 18 months.

You have the support of the Atlas MEC, not the line pilots. Big difference!
 
You could have had Atlas pay rates long ago if you would have accepted the full Atlas CBA!

"As for negotiating again in 18 months you are ignoring the fact that what would be negotiated would be a Transition agreement which is not a normal section 6 process. The transition agreement has MANDATORY BINDING ARBITRATION at the end of it."

You are currently maintaining the status quo provision (as required by the RLA) of the last CBA extension (with pay raise) you agreed to rather than negotiate at the same time as the Atlas crews. Who are you trying to b.s.? You would have already taken a trip through binding arbitration if what you are saying is true.

Remember, a CBA doesn't expire, it just becomes amendable. You could have continued forever with things the way they are. Or you could have accepted the extension and the 10.5% pay raise. Or you could have gotten the Atlas rates by accepting the full Atlas CBA. Instead, you decided to strike because the company wouldn't give you a 31% pay increase and maintain the good terms and conditions you currently have. Really stupid, considering the current situation the company and the industry are in. What were you guys thinking?

The biggest problem that has plagued pilot groups for years is GREED. You spent too much time worrying about what other groups have and not enough time appreciating what you have. You do have a good QOL contract and a 10.5% increase would have been a decent improvement. Now your membership is out of work and their jobs will likely be lost forever. The union membership will shrink. How is that good long-term planning?

It's an issue of timing. You really missed the mark on this one.
 
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B747-300 said:
You could have had Atlas pay rates long ago if you would have accepted the full Atlas CBA!

"As for negotiating again in 18 months you are ignoring the fact that what would be negotiated would be a Transition agreement which is not a normal section 6 process. The transition agreement has MANDATORY BINDING ARBITRATION at the end of it."

You are currently maintaining the status quo provision (as required by the RLA) of the last CBA extension (with pay raise) you agreed to rather than negotiate at the same time as the Atlas crews. Who are you trying to b.s.? You would have already taken a trip through binding arbitration if what you are saying is true.

Remember, a CBA doesn't expire, it just becomes amendable. You could have continued forever with things the way they are. Or you could have accepted the extension and the 10.5% pay raise. Or you could have gotten the Atlas rates by accepting the full Atlas CBA. Instead, you decided to strike because the company wouldn't give you a 31% pay increase and maintain the good terms and conditions you currently have. Really stupid, considering the current situation the company and the industry are in. What were you guys thinking?

The biggest problem that has plagued pilot groups for years is GREED. You spent too much time worrying about what other groups have and not enough time appreciating what you have. You do have a good QOL contract and a 10.5% increase would have been a decent improvement. Now your membership is out of work and their jobs will likely be lost forever. The union membership will shrink. How is that good long-term planning?

It's an issue of timing. You really missed the mark on this one.

Appreciate what you have? Greed? If your version of Greed is asking for a payraise that will still make you the lowest paid 747 operator, you have a serious problem! I sure hope you're not negotiating the next CBA for the Atlas Pilot group. :rolleyes:
 
You are not the lowest paid 747 operators! That must be something your MEC invented to get you guys to strike. Who are you comparing yourself to, Northwest??

You have the lowest number of duty days available to the company of any airline in your category (like Atlas, Kalitta, Tradewinds, Southern, Evergreen or Focus). When you consider the number of days worked to earn "guarantee", then your pay seems well above most other carriers in your category. When you do a comparison, look at number of days worked versus monthly earnings and not just the hourly rate.

It is unrealistic to believe that you can get top pay and top terms and conditions at this point in time. The carriers you compare yourself to got their hourly rates where they are by reducing their demands in other areas of their contracts. If you wanted Atlas pay, you should have accepted the full Atlas CBA!!
 
747-300 Using your "logic" you must expect the Atlas pilot group opener 3 months from now to be an extension of the current contract. Following your logic further you are willing to take a 20% pay cut to get the Polar contract.

Funny thing though is that you just said you would go on strike if you were offered a pay cut.

Let's compare Polar and Atlas "costs" in addition to hourly pay rates. Both have the same medical, the same dental, the same pass privilidges. The company pays 60% LESS to the Polar pilots for retirement and lower domestic per diem.

So where are the Polar pilots higher costs? Well the "Guarantee" is 3 hours a month higher at Polar and the company has one less day a month in which to schedule at LEAST the guarantee number of hours. Since the company routinely builds lines well over guarantee (specially on the 400) there is no COST to the company in having that higher guarantee (Ditto for the number of days scheduled to work).

Granted it is no great accomplishment with airplanes that can and routinely do fly 10-14 hour legs to schedule crews over 65 hours in 16 days.

One thing that can raise the company costs at Polar is running the operation short staffed and having to pay overtime to have crew members come out and fly on their days OFF.

The bottom line is when the company schedules properly they are receiving the services of a Polar pilot for 32% less than when they receive that same service from an Atlas pilot.

Why do you think Polar pilots should be payed LESS than you to do the same job?
 
Jolly said:
Why do you think Polar pilots should be payed LESS than you to do the same job?

My guess would be that he (300) is mgmt. and if Polar is paid what Atlas is, they have no leg to stand on next year when they come after the Atlas pilots.

Whatever Polar ends up with WILL be what Atlas is paid after their contract neg. Either by contract or binding arbitration during the merger.

All this assumes of course that there is a Polar left, if not, then Atlas is in bad shape. With the loss of the scheduled service and associated revenue should Polar shut down, Atlas loses a huge percentage of their income. Just looking at the sec filings it appears that most (50+%...some say as high as 69%) of the companies total revenue comes from the 12 airplanes on the Polar side. Working the numbers to make one side or the other appear profitable or not, does not change the fact that the scheduled side brings in huge amounts of cash. Additionally with the explosive growth in the asian market, those scheduled slots will be worth 10 times their current amount in a few years.

Together, Polar and Atlas can become something huge and very very good......either one alone is just another third rate freight outfit.

Everybody else out there is just frothing at the mouth to get those asian route authorities.
 
"747-300 Using your "logic" you must expect the Atlas pilot group opener 3 months from now to be an extension of the current contract. Following your logic further you are willing to take a 20% pay cut to get the Polar contract."

It's really just common sense, something that seems to be missing from your negotiations. If fuel prices are still at record levels and if the company hasn't made a profit, then yes, we'd be happy to accept a 10.5% raise and an 18 month extension to our current CBA.

I think Polar (the name, the planes, the crews and the CBA) are gone for good, so there's really no reason to speculate about us getting your contract.

"All this assumes of course that there is a Polar left, if not, then Atlas is in bad shape. With the loss of the scheduled service and associated revenue should Polar shut down, Atlas loses a huge percentage of their income."

Atlas will be in great shape! AAWW can always use Atlas as a scheduled and ACMI carrier if they feel that would contribute to our profitability. Atlas crews will likely get a much improved contract amendment without the Polar MEC around to knife us in the back.

"Why do you think Polar pilots should be payed LESS than you to do the same job?"

You should be "paid" less because of B. Fell. And because your membership accepted the last contract extension and pay raise rather than negotiate with AAWW at the same time as Atlas. We could have had better QOL and you could have had better pay if you hadn't sold out last time.


Speaking of Bob F., what's that idiot doing up in ANC. I'm hearing stories of dirty tricks and intimidation. Hasn't this guy done enough damage to your union? It sure looks like he's still running the show.
 

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