PNCL: Class personified!! wow., just wow

[higney85]

Not Sli related, but 50 seater related. The routes will still need to be flown. That means either larger RJ's or more mainline jets. For more "large" RJ's there would be a need of scope restriction relaxation. Without scope being loosened we are looking at more mainline jobs coming from regional ranks. Personally, I want to see the majors (as in pilots/unions) attempt to ring in scope (as in require more mainline jets and less RJ's). That gives us all far larger opportunities opposed to bickering over RJ's. Attrition due to retirement and post-recessionary (cause/effect) understaffing will bring movement to everyone on the list (in all ranges except the top). Further 50 seat cuts may "shrink" the pilot need at the regionals, but more than enhance the progression to a major. Staffing alone at majors is much higher per airframe then regionals.

 

[DoinTime]

DOH works out better for a higher % of Pinnacle pilots since 2004 you took delivery of what....70 planes while Mesaba since 2007/8 took delivery of only 41. So all your posturing and lies are all to screw your own bottom half of the list. And by proposing what your MEC (negotiators) proposed is based on lies. From what I hear was not backed up by ANY real evidence, unlike other proposals brought forth during mediation.

Pinnacle's fleet was fully delivered by the end of 2004. We have 2 more aircraft today than we did 7 years ago. I know that doesn't support your distorted story of self pity and blame placing but whatever....you are hardly a figure of competence and nobody looks to you for a view of reality.

DOH works very well for for the high longevity pilots at Mesaba (thats why the XJ committee proposed it) and some Pinnacle FOs. In a nutshell DOH would result in a list that was highly segregated most visibly in the captain ranks with Mesaba dominating the top end, PCL occupying the middle, and CJC bringing up the rear.

Ultimately, this isn't an exercise in integrating longevity, its an exercise in integrating seniority. Seniority and longevity are two vastly different things. Thats why arbitrators haven't used DOH for pilot seniority integration in over 20 years. The most probable scenario on how this will go will be a ratioed/relative status and category just like almost all arbitrated pilot seniority integrations in recent memory. The questions will be what defines the categories, what order will they be placed and what the fences will be (if any).

For the upcoming award I have my money on 6 tiers ordered like this:

- Turbojet CA
- Turboprop CA
- Turbojet FO
- Turboprop FO
- Furloughs
- Pilots hired after 7/1/10

I'm not saying anything to the perceived merits of my guessed outcome but there is no magic in modern pilot seniority integration. Its a process that is fairly simple to understand with an afternoon's worth of reading yet so many would rather chase their own ideology on what they 'think' is fair and what their 'view' of the integration is like somehow they are the first pilots to ever integrate seniority. These ideologues will trudge around for years b*tching about how they got screwed and in some cases (i.e., US Air) cause irreparable harm to the profession.

Neither the MSA or CJC proposals gripped the reality of how this thing is almost certainly going to go. Say what you will about the PCL proposal but at least its oriented towards some sort of reality. Was it over the top to place Turbojet FOs over Turboprop CAs? Probably, but this was a proposal to an arbitrator in an interest arbitration. You have to propose some things that you don't expect to get. Thats just how interest arbitration works.

 

[Flyer1015]

Pinnacle's fleet was fully delivered by the end of 2004. We have 2 more aircraft today than we did 7 years ago. I know that doesn't support your distorted story of self pity and blame placing but whatever....you are hardly a figure of competence and nobody looks to you for a view of reality.

DOH works very well for for the high longevity pilots at Mesaba (thats why the XJ committee proposed it) and some Pinnacle FOs. In a nutshell DOH would result in a list that was highly segregated most visibly in the captain ranks with Mesaba dominating the top end, PCL occupying the middle, and CJC bringing up the rear.

Ultimately, this isn't an exercise in integrating longevity, its an exercise in integrating seniority. Seniority and longevity are two vastly different things. Thats why arbitrators haven't used DOH for pilot seniority integration in over 20 years. The most probable scenario on how this will go will be a ratioed/relative status and category just like almost all arbitrated pilot seniority integrations in recent memory. The questions will be what defines the categories, what order will they be placed and what the fences will be (if any).

For the upcoming award I have my money on 6 tiers ordered like this:

- Turbojet CA
- Turboprop CA
- Turbojet FO
- Turboprop FO
- Furloughs
- Pilots hired after 7/1/10

I'm not saying anything to the perceived merits of my guessed outcome but there is no magic in modern pilot seniority integration. Its a process that is fairly simple to understand with an afternoon's worth of reading yet so many would rather chase their own ideology on what they 'think' is fair and what their 'view' of the integration is like somehow they are the first pilots to ever integrate seniority. These ideologues will trudge around for years b*tching about how they got screwed and in some cases (i.e., US Air) cause irreparable harm to the profession.

Neither the MSA or CJC proposals gripped the reality of how this thing is almost certainly going to go. Say what you will about the PCL proposal but at least its oriented towards some sort of reality. Was it over the top to place Turbojet FOs over Turboprop CAs? Probably, but this was a proposal to an arbitrator in an interest arbitration. You have to propose some things that you don't expect to get. Thats just how interest arbitration works.

Excellent post!

 

[bri5150]

Not Sli related, but 50 seater related. The routes will still need to be flown. That means either larger RJ's or more mainline jets. For more "large" RJ's there would be a need of scope restriction relaxation. Without scope being loosened we are looking at more mainline jobs coming from regional ranks. Personally, I want to see the majors (as in pilots/unions) attempt to ring in scope (as in require more mainline jets and less RJ's). That gives us all far larger opportunities opposed to bickering over RJ's. Attrition due to retirement and post-recessionary (cause/effect) understaffing will bring movement to everyone on the list (in all ranges except the top). Further 50 seat cuts may "shrink" the pilot need at the regionals, but more than enhance the progression to a major. Staffing alone at majors is much higher per airframe then regionals.

I could not agree more with you.

 

[bri5150]

Pinnacle's fleet was fully delivered by the end of 2004. We have 2 more aircraft today than we did 7 years ago. I know that doesn't support your distorted story of self pity and blame placing but whatever....you are hardly a figure of competence and nobody looks to you for a view of reality.

DOH works very well for for the high longevity pilots at Mesaba (thats why the XJ committee proposed it) and some Pinnacle FOs. In a nutshell DOH would result in a list that was highly segregated most visibly in the captain ranks with Mesaba dominating the top end, PCL occupying the middle, and CJC bringing up the rear.

Ultimately, this isn't an exercise in integrating longevity, its an exercise in integrating seniority. Seniority and longevity are two vastly different things. Thats why arbitrators haven't used DOH for pilot seniority integration in over 20 years. The most probable scenario on how this will go will be a ratioed/relative status and category just like almost all arbitrated pilot seniority integrations in recent memory. The questions will be what defines the categories, what order will they be placed and what the fences will be (if any).

For the upcoming award I have my money on 6 tiers ordered like this:

- Turbojet CA
- Turboprop CA
- Turbojet FO
- Turboprop FO
- Furloughs
- Pilots hired after 7/1/10

I'm not saying anything to the perceived merits of my guessed outcome but there is no magic in modern pilot seniority integration. Its a process that is fairly simple to understand with an afternoon's worth of reading yet so many would rather chase their own ideology on what they 'think' is fair and what their 'view' of the integration is like somehow they are the first pilots to ever integrate seniority. These ideologues will trudge around for years b*tching about how they got screwed and in some cases (i.e., US Air) cause irreparable harm to the profession.

Neither the MSA or CJC proposals gripped the reality of how this thing is almost certainly going to go. Say what you will about the PCL proposal but at least its oriented towards some sort of reality. Was it over the top to place Turbojet FOs over Turboprop CAs? Probably, but this was a proposal to an arbitrator in an interest arbitration. You have to propose some things that you don't expect to get. Thats just how interest arbitration works.

I agree that longevity and seniority are completely different things, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't both be included in seniorty integration. If we didn't use longevity at all, then it should be straight relative, and I am pretty sure you would be pissed if a 2 year Colgan pilot got put ahead of you if you were a 7 year guy (of course I am making up the numbers but you get the point). I think the proposal of DOH is way more acceptable than the "probably" over the top Pinnacle proposal. If you were to ask a third party (or fourth in this situation I guess) how you would integrate employee lists, DOH would be one of the top two answers. Cutting some out of the middle and putting them at the bottom would not be one of the answers at all, because it makes no sense.

 

[Flyer1015]

deleted

 

[bri5150]

deleted

Uh oh...Flyer posts this after my post and now his name is red. Does that mean he ignored me? Time to go shed a tear.

 

[higney85]

Uh oh...Flyer posts this after my post and now his name is red. Does that mean he ignored me? Time to go shed a tear.

I don't think so. Maybe he got banned and a mod deleted it. I think if you ignore someone it shows they posted and says "this user is on your ignored list..."(something like that) where their post would be.

 

[DoinTime]

If you were to ask a third party (or fourth in this situation I guess) how you would integrate employee lists, DOH would be one of the top two answers.

Are you referring to asking an unknowledgeable fourth party or someone who has a base of knowledge on the subject? If its the latter, your assumption would be wrong.

 

[bri5150]

Are you referring to asking an unknowledgeable fourth party or someone who has a base of knowledge on the subject? If its the latter, your assumption would be wrong.

I am talking about someone with a good base of common sense. Kinda like asking that same person if the only thing that should go into SLI is the amount of aicraft you have/scheduled to have, or should other factors be used as well, like gains from contracts, existing staffing models, quality of employees in key spots (training, union, management pilots...), flow loss, safety records, stuff like that. Maybe he will only look at our aircraft situation and decide based on that. I hope not, but it's possible. That's the only criteria I hear coming from Pinnacle pilots on this board and the Pinnacle MEC. I've said it before and I'll say it again, if it's somewhere between relative and DOH, I will call it fair and be happy. If some categories are cut out and stuck on the bottom, that will be pretty ********************ty, but I will get over it and hope I am in the upper categories I guess.

Listen, I am trying to put up a good fight, but I have a horrible feeling Mesaba's pilot group will be split in two and the bottom half will get a ratio. I also think there will be huge fences. Because of what I stated above, I think that is unfair. The aircraft aren't the only things that should be involved. It's just easy to look at that and say we should be split. I understand the Pinnacle view point, but I think it is too narrow minded, that's all. The sky wasn't falling for me before the aquisition, so I would hate to have the arbitrator tell me the sky was falling and screw me over.