Pledge of allegiance declared unconstuti

[AWACoff]

Timebuilder,
Just because you are a Jesus Freak does not make you "holier than thou". Get off your high horse. I chose not to live my life believing in myth...I chose reality. The Bible (especially the old testament) is simply stories "handed" down generation by generation due to word of mouth. Have you ever played the "Telephone Game"? That game goes like this...a story is told to one person, they relay the story to another...and on and on. Eventually the story is completely changed and bears almost no resemblance to the original. Much of the old testament was created prior to the written word. It is a story...that's it. The New Testament is filled with similar inaccuracies due to incorrect translations. We are dirt. We live...we die. There is nothing else. Enjoy life while you have it.

PS. Don't worry about me burning in hell...there is no hell. Above all, fly safe and have fun. I signing off this thread.

 

[beezlebozo]

Obviously, eternal suffering and d@mnation awaits anyone who does not believe in god's infinite love.

If it's not unconstitutional, don't be upset if your child's teacher is a satanist, and worships in front of the kids every day, as long as they don't have to participate and no laws are broken.

beezlebozo
clown from hell


"God does not play dice with the universe. He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of any of the other players, to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles ALL the time." - Good Omens

 

[Timebuilder]

Thanks for reminding me of my old liberal/agnostic days, when I was unable to have a discussion like this without making insulting remarks and attacking the person. You have a right to your opinion, too, even though it is different from mine. That's the American way.

You know who would stop that teacher from practicing satanism in front of the class? Not a Christian. It would be PETA, protesting the killing of the animal sacrifice!

Awacoff, it's good to know that you believe in something: secular humanism. As an American you have made a choice, based on the religious freedom you are guaranteed under the constitution.

That's how this thread got started. If you stopped here for a moment, and thought a little about your freedoms, and how precious they are at this time in our history, then all of this keyboard time on this thread was worth it. God bless America.

Fly safe.

 

[TWA Dude]

Who placed the nativity scene there? The government? Or, was it American citizens? Was a law passed mandating that a particular religious symbol be placed on public property by the city council, or did individual citizens, acting on their own volition, decide what they wanted to place there without any prompting from the government?

Regardless of how it got there a religious symbol (as opposed to just the word "God") on publically-supported property is an implicit endorsement of said religion. Most buildings are private and may endorse whatever they wish.

This is the very essence of the discussion: what actually entails an "official endorsement" of a particular religious belief, and can the government limit the activity of American citizens, exercising their constitutional freedoms, just because they are employed by the government in a public building, or attending a public school? Do these employees or students and teachers give up thier constitutional rights in these situations?

Whether or not anyones' rights are being violated is up to the courts to decide. For example, when does the line between insulting someone, which is allowed by free speech, cross over to harassment, which is not allowed? As years pass society changes and often so too do definitions of acceptable or unacceptable behavior. So to answer your question as to what constitutes "official endorsement" it's what the courts decide. The three branches of our government and the checks and balances therein decide.

If you have a fear that Christians want to be recognized as the official religion of the United States, you can relax, now. I would fight that idea to the death.

I believe you. But at the same time those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. Never, EVER say "it can't happen here". It can.

Having an agenda is a big part of being an American. The point of setting aside time is to allow an activity that has little opportunity in a busy student schedule.

How sad it is that our public school students are so-oo busy that time has to be taken out of class to allow them to pray. Horse-cookies! I've missed many days of classes due to religious observance and I never once had any troubles because of it. Our "busy" students who wish or need to pray have plenty of opportunity to do so.

You may have a perception that Christians want to impose a belief on others, but no one has explained just how this is done.

Here's how. A child is the only non-Christian in the class and during a "prayer period" the teacher leads the class in Christian prayer. It's happened to me. It's peer and teacher pressure on a vulnerable child. I resisted it but not all can or will. Nobody should be subjected to that in a public school.

How many people prayed for the first time as that plane accelerated to the ocean?

One of my favorite expressions is "there are no atheists in foxholes".

 

[TurboS7]

Sinners saved by grace

The ONLY diffrence between Christains and the rest of the world is that we are sinners saved by grace."For by grace are you saved through faith, it is not of yourselves it is a GIFT from God, not of works least any man should boast." The only evidence of the power of the gospel are changed lives, changed hearts from the inside out, not slaves to sin. Man cannot do that it happens only through the power of the Holy Spirit. It is a miracle that no one can understand, when that power of conviction starts knocking on the deep inside of your life don't reject it, check it out. The power is not in church, it is not in any type of organized religion, it is in the wonderful Word of God the Bible, which God through inspiration of the scriptures gave to us. No AcWolf, it is not a bunch of fairy tales is a POH from the one who made us.This Word has been preserved and is .002% accurate from the time that it was authored. There are many books written both Christian and secular that talk about how incrediable that is.
When I was flying back from Punta Cana the other night at 350 we turned the lights off just to look at the stars. There were so many and they were so bright it was breath taking. The creation was awesome it is all around us. The aerodynamic'
s and the physic's of flight are amazing. Can you imagine what the recip or turbine engine would be like if when the metals got hot they contracted instead of expanding. We would be carrying more oil then fuel. VHF vs. HF amazing that we can send signals through the air. God told Adam to subdue the earth. All this stuff has been here since the beginning, we have just discovered it.
I love freedom of religion. I was talking to a Muslim from Pakistan the other day that has only lived here 6 months. He said the freedom of religion here was fantastic, in Pakistan you can only practice the type of Muslim faith for the part of the country that he lives in. In other words I guess we would have a Catholic state, a Baptist state, a Buddist state, etc. We don't have that. I know that I have nothing to worry about as when the power of the gospel takes hold it changes lives and burns like fire, no one can put it out. It is not religion it is a relationship with the awesome creator that created all things for us because He loves us.
In Duet. 6 God promises Israel that he would bless them that blessed Israel and curse them that cursed Israel. Our blessing on this country may or not be because of the fact that we have acknowleged God. I personally believe that God has blessed this country for one reason and that is to finance getting the gospel to the uttermost part of the earth. I personally believe that the Christian church has failed in this way to great proportions in America, and we will pay for that for eternity.
If you guys havn't been to Haiti you need to go there. Haiti was dedicated to Satan upon its inception, voodo and Satan worship are the mainstream of Haitian economics. The country is not blessed and the curse of Satan is all over the island, it is evident for any that go there. The Christian church still thrives, I will never forget one night in Cap Haitian sitting out on the balcony of the hotel. The heard the Baptist church in the valley singing hyms, their joyous singing was mixed with the voodo drums in the hills mixing together to one thing. It is all a choice of the heart.
Thankyou all who have participated in this thread, being able to express your views on what we hold dear to our heart is one of the precious freedoms that we as American's have. Whether you are Muslim, Hindu, agnostic, a satanist, or whatever, you are welcome here, thankyou.

 

[A Squared]

Time Builder,


>>>>>Well, I see we have an outspoken group of anti-religion bigots here.

Nope, I'm not. If you go back and read my posts in this thread you won't find a single word attacking christianity, or any other religion. Nor is there any indication of what I do or don't worship. All you know is that I disagree with you and you hypocritical opinion on the pledge. Like TWA Dude said, any time domeone disagrees with you, you beleive it's an attack on christianity.
No, it's not, it just isn't there in my words.


>>>>As a left winger, my old personal club, you have to accuse me of lying.

Nope, wrong again, I'm not a left winger, not particularly liberal at all. I haven't made any statement about my political beliefs. You don't like being shown to be a hypocrite, you can't do anything about it so you fall back on the tired old ploy of screaming Liberal, Liberal. After all, anyone who is against you MUST be a liberal, right? No, wrong, I'm just against hypocracy, specifically, your hypocracy.

Now, even though you've tried to cloud the issue with your unsubstantiated charges of "attack on christianity" and "left winger"; Even though you dance around the question and say you'd welcome it, to use it as a "lesson", your answer is clear, you wouldn't be happy with a pledge in public schools which described the nation as "under Satan". That my friend is hypocracy. All your arguments that God is OK in the pledge, that it's not a prayer, that it doesn't demand respect or reverence, that it not a big deal, etc. etc.
All your arguements fall flat on thier face, when we find that you're not willing to be guided by your own words when it's something you don't like, instead of something you do like.


Your hypocracy carries through into your arguments about school prayer. Prayer is not outlawed in school. A student may use his or her free time to pray. Your argument about needing to make time is completely specious. I look back to my high school days and see a lot of free time. In the morning, students who arrived a bit early, were allowed into the cafeteria to study or quietly socialize. There would have been ample time for student to do a little pre-school praying. After that, we had a homeroom period, which had no specific activities other than that we be in our seats and be quiet. Another perfect prayer opportunity. During the day, all students had one or more "study hall" periods during which there were no specific requirements other than being in your seat and being quiet. During Study Hall, you could go to the library, which would be an even better place for a little private, quiet, reflective worship. During lunch, there is planty of time to give quiet thanks for the meal before you. We could also spend our lunch period in the library, as lons as we didn't bring food....another perfect prayer opportunity. There's plenty of free time for a little quiet prayer in a public school day. If praying was truly a priority for a student, they would make the time to do it. Of course, students "praying" in a loud, disruptive manner should be disciplined, just like any other disruptive punk who talks in class, or is otherwise disruptive.

No, my friend, there is ample opportunity for a student of faith to quietly, privately worship, in a public school. The thing is, that's not what you want. When you speak of school prayer, you are speaking of the teacher leading the students in a group prayer, prefererably to your god, you know, the RIGHT god.

That is exactly what should be prohibited in public schools.

 

[kilomike]

I do not recall instances of discrimination against Christians in public schools in my local area. On the weekends, there are CCD (Confraternity of Catholic Doctrine) classes held in the public school building. The church rents the class room space at a certain time slot. Hardly any persecution there.

Additionally, I do not like the idea of a teacher-led Christian prayer. What if some of the kids in the class are Jewish or Muslim? I believe this to be forcing the teacher's beliefs on others. Equally, I feel that the decision on the Pledge was an atheist's attempt to force his views on other people who do not share his atheism. Neither situation is right. Nobody has the right to force their religious views on others.

As an Eastern-rite Catholic by belief, I do not generally discuss religion with others since I consider it a personal matter. For example I know that many people believe in Hell. As a Polish National Catholic by faith, I do not believe in Hell, but that does not give me the right to tell others that thay should not believe in Hell. I have trouble even with my very Roman Catholic mother who believes that the only true religion is Catholicism and with her awful reaction towards an uncle who converted to Pentecostal beliefs. I say that her Roman Catholic faith is right for HER, that his Pentacostalism is right for HIM, and that my Eastern-rite Catholic beliefs are right for ME. There is no one right answer. Come on, folks let's stop trying to convert other people!! I do not care for it when people of other religions go knocking on my door to try to convert me. This is how I felt when the Pledge decision was made.

Also, this situation has NOTHING to do with liberal/conservative! That is the silliest thing I ever heard. It was an ATHEIST that stirred up the pot with this kind of silliness. I have no problem with atheists--they have the right to believe what they wish, but PLEASE do not try to convert me!!

 

[SDF2BUF2MCO]

Wow a religious discussion on an aviation board.
Wanted to chime in with my $0.02. I would lean toward most of the folks who don't want to be bothered with religion and/or christianity would rather think I can do it on my own.
In recent years, however, one thing that has troubled me is our country's obsession with social security numbers. It's used for everything such as college ID, to get insurance, credit cards, get cable TV(!!!), driver's license, pilot license, vote (at least in Florida), etc.
In the book of Revelation 13 it talks about the numbering of man and not being able to buy or sell without the mark. I tried to buy car insurance in FL and was basically shut out until I provided my big brother SSN. While this may seem insignificant, Rev.13 also states the mark will be 'in' the hand or forehead. The technology is here for this to happen via computer chips. What is fascinating is there wasn't any technology or energy source for this type of thing to happen hundreds or thousands of years ago when this was written. So either the person who wrote this had a great science fiction mind or it came from "above".
Again, what has caused me to rethink some of this is our country's obsession with the SSN.

 

[Delta3]

I wonder how many public schools had an assembly after 9/11. At my public university we did, and it was called a "Prayer Service". This is at a school that has more Indians (from India) than African Americans, and no one complained about it.

I don't think events like that are "pushing" religions on people as they are voluntary just like the Pledge of Allegiance.

 

[TWA Dude]

I don't think events like that are "pushing" religions on people as they are voluntary just like the Pledge of Allegiance.

I agree, a one-time commemorative session like you described isn't offensive. However every day for a designated period of time is something different.