planned fuel at touchdown

[profile]

Hello. Wondering what your company's typical planned fuel (in minutes) at touchdown at the destination (or what ever term you use for it) is for:

1. VMC weather?

2. your alternate if IMC. ?

3. Also, what is your company policy on declaring an alternate?

If you could name your company it would be great too.

Thanks

 

[TonyC]

Well, I'd post my answers, but you already know 'em.



Anybody?




.

 

[bizjet737]

NJLA 737 (NetJets Large Aircraft) uses 9-10k on landing - about 90-120 minutes. however, for the 12hr flights, it would be about 4-6k or 45-60 minutes in the tanks. vfr/ifr doesn't matter. alternates always listed internationally, domestic as required.

 

[typhoonpilot]

European style rules at Emirates have us landing with:

Final Reserve Fuel + Alternate Fuel + any remaining Contingency Fuel.

Defined.

Final Reserve Fuel = Fuel to fly for 30 minutes at holding speed at 1500 ft. above the destination alternate in standard conditions, calculated with estimated weight on arrival at the alternate.

Alternate Fuel = Fuel for a missed approach from the MDA/DH at the destination, climb to cruising altitude, cruise, descent, approach, and landing with a contingency of 5% added. Not to be less than fuel required for 100 track miles.

Contingency Fuel = The higher of (a) or (b) below:

a. Either:

(i) 5% of the planned trip fuel; or

(ii) 3% of the planned trip fuel provided that an en-route alternate is available. The en-route alternate should be located withinh a circle having a radius equal to 20% of the total flight plan distance, the center of which lies on the planned route at a distance from the destination of 25% of the total flight plan distance, or at 20% of the total flight plan distance plus 50NM, whichever is the greater.

(iii) An amount of fuel sufficient for 20 minutes flying time based upon the planned trip fuel consumption.

b. An amount to fly for 5 minutes at holding speed 1500 ft. above the destination airport in standard conditions.


Up until recently we were using a blanket 5% contingency most of the time. This new change, to come in-line with what the majority of European operators are using, has us now using the 3% contingency most of the time. For a typical flight from Dubai to Singapore or Dubai to Europe ( 7+ hours ) we used to land with roughly 80 to 90 minutes of fuel remaining. Using the 3 % figure that has been cut by 15 minutes to 65 to 75 minutes of fuel remaining.

We always use at least one alternate unless it is a remote destination in which case the fuel would be for 2 hours at normal cruise consumption.


Typhoonpilot

 

[XR650R]

From the SWA FOM


Standard VMC Arrival Fuel

Standard VMC arrival fuel will be planned based on standard contingency fuel when:
• Actual and forecast weather is not less than a 2000 foot ceiling and visibility is not less than 3 statute miles, 1 hour prior to 1 hour after the ETA. • There are no adverse weather or trends in the vicinity of the destination airport that might adversely affect the flight.

Standard VMC arrival fuel flight time reserves:
Planned Flight Time:
<2+00 25min. + FAR 45min. (1+10 hrs) & not less than 5000# >2+00<4+00 35min. + FAR 45min. (1+20 hrs)
>4+00 45min. + FAR 45min. (1+30 hrs)

Arrival fuel less than 5000 pounds will not be planned without agreement between the Captain and the Dispatcher.


PS sorry but I can't get the page wrap to work correctly

 

[coho92]

at least 50K - AF doesnt care bout gas prices and if they make me go ddf - 1ax for a humvee and driver I'm done worrying bout tankering fuel

 

[Ty Webb]

Homey doesn't play "less than one hour".

Hmmmm . . . I plan to be on the ground with a minimum of 6000 lb (approx 1:10) plus any extras (alternate, holding, extended taxi, etc.).

Enroute, I will accept being on the ground with 5000, but any less than that, and I'm outta there. Homey doesn't play "less than one hour".

 

[profile]

Thanks for the replies. I hear that UAL is applying to reduce their alternate requirements, so that if the airport has CAT 3 capability and the destination is forecast at eta +/- 1 hr to have 1000' cig and 1 mile vis, that no alternate would be required. Can anyone confirm this?

Also, interested in Delta, NWA and AA.

The numbers people listed are their FOM mins? In actual practice, do your dispatchers use those numbers, and do most crews accept them or add more?

 

[aa73]

For AA's MD80s it is usually a minimum of 6000 which is about 1:00, in VMC at an airport like DFW or STL... at airports like LGA or PHL (delay-prone) we usually see a min of 7000lbs, included in that is usually at least about 500lbs of holding. In IMC we have the typical alternate fuel setup plus a little extra for holding. Dispatch adds a few hundred lbs for WX avoidance or rough rides (climbing & descending). Yes, AA has cut down on arrival fuel, back in the 90s it wouldn't be uncommon to see 9000lbs in VMC on arrival.

 

[trip]

[/QUOTE]NJLA 737 (NetJets Large Aircraft) uses 9-10k on landing - about 90-120 minutes. however, for the 12hr flights, it would be about 4-6k or 45-60 minutes in the tanks. vfr/ifr doesn't matter. alternates always listed internationally, domestic as required.

12hrs with 45 min left in the tanks? Is this a common practice?

 

[Spooky 1]

Part 121?

NJLA 737 (NetJets Large Aircraft) uses 9-10k on landing - about 90-120 minutes. however, for the 12hr flights, it would be about 4-6k or 45-60 minutes in the tanks. vfr/ifr doesn't matter. alternates always listed internationally, domestic as required.

12hrs with 45 min left in the tanks? Is this a common practice?

Are you running on a Part 121 certificate? Do you use "redispatch" for your longest legs? How many ponds of fuel can the NJI BBJ carry and what tank configurations are in use?

 

[Spooky 1]

Min vs Emergency fuel

Thanks for the replies. I hear that UAL is applying to reduce their alternate requirements, so that if the airport has CAT 3 capability and the destination is forecast at eta +/- 1 hr to have 1000' cig and 1 mile vis, that no alternate would be required. Can anyone confirm this?

Also, interested in Delta, NWA and AA.

The numbers people listed are their FOM mins? In actual practice, do your dispatchers use those numbers, and do most crews accept them or add more?

Does FedEx use a "min fuel" figure and a "emergency fuel figure" in the MD11 and if so, what are those numbers?

 

[bizjet737]

this isn't nji - it's the original netjets. ops are 91/135 - 2 pilots 2 f/a's up to 8hrs flt and 14 duty; 3pilots 3 f/a's 8-12hrs flt 18hrs duty. no redispatch. max fuel is 65k it's like 2 tanks fwd, 5 aft (one a/c has 55k to carry more bags).
common? not really - i've done it 3-4 times in 4yrs on the plane. "normal max" is 10-11hrs, landing with 10k. landing w/45 mins would have to be vfr and low-density airport.

NJLA 737 (NetJets Large Aircraft) uses 9-10k on landing - about 90-120 minutes. however, for the 12hr flights, it would be about 4-6k or 45-60 minutes in the tanks. vfr/ifr doesn't matter. alternates always listed internationally, domestic as required.

Are you running on a Part 121 certificate? Do you use "redispatch" for your longest legs? How many ponds of fuel can the NJI BBJ carry and what tank configurations are in use?

 

[blzr]

Hello. Wondering what your company's typical planned fuel (in minutes) at touchdown at the destination (or what ever term you use for it) is for:

1. VMC weather?

2. your alternate if IMC. ?

3. Also, what is your company policy on declaring an alternate?

If you could name your company it would be great too.

Thanks

Enough to taxi to the gate plus a little extra for the apu.

 

[profile]

For the MD11, FedEx uses 15k for min FAT at the destination and 10k is Emerg fuel, although, in actual practice, most flights land with quite a bit more than 20k.

Average FF for the MD11 is stated to be about 16k/hr, although it can be higher than that.

Between our conservative dispatchers and crews adding even more on top of that, we tend to tanker a lot.

How do these numbers compare to other operators? How often to crews add more fuel over the Flight plan, and how does the company react to that?

 

[Spooky 1]

MD11 Fuel

It's been awhile since I was on the MD11, but I can recall doing KLAX/VHHH non-stops (sometimes) and if we were lucky we would get there with about 15K. We looked at our projected fuel abeam TPE and if it was around 32K or less we would drop in for a squirt to get us over to VHHH. Aircraft had two aux tanks in lieu of LD containers in fwd baggage compartment. Fuel load came right out of the payload capability.

Currently using a 5K as a min fuel in the B757 and 3.5 as Emergency fuel. Typically land with nothing less than 10K. We did a non-stop from Istanbul to Seattle (12.4 hrs.) and landed with 6.5, good wx, no traffic to speak of. We have aux tanks so that speaks to the long leg ability of this particualr aircraft.

Where we see critical fuel scenarios is on a 2 engine depressurization or a 1EO at 10,000' diversion. Some ETP fuel plans will have you getting to your ETP airport with less than 4K, as if you don't have enough problems on your hands all ready.

 

[profile]

What does 5k equate to in time?

 

[Spooky 1]

Min Fuel

What does 5k equate to in time?

Min Fuel: In this case it is enough fuel to hold at 1500' AFE for 30 minutes and the fly one approach to a landing, plus any fuel tank gauge tolerences.

Emerg. Fuel: In this case is enough to execute a MAP at 200', climb to 1500' AFE
then proceed downwind for 10 miles, turn to final and fly one approach to a landing, plus any fuel tank guage tolerences.

Not a perfect solution, but it gives you a min standard so that you are not in a debate trying to determine the next course of action. If in doubt, declare Min Fuel to ATC and proceed accordingly. Note: Min Fuel and Emergency Fuel declarations are not always understood in countries outside the US. So bet the the farm on how you might be treated someplace other than the US. Plan Ahead!

 

[typhoonpilot]

Note: Min Fuel and Emergency Fuel declarations are not always understood in countries outside the US. So bet the the farm on how you might be treated someplace other than the US. Plan Ahead!

The UK being one that does not recognize a min. fuel declaration. I guess they got tired of all the Asian and African operators showing up, declaring min. fuel and trying to get priority.

How often to crews add more fuel over the Flight plan, and how does the company react to that?

About half the time.

I really like to have about 20 minutes of holding fuel over the alternate and final reserve level. If the weather is good and it's a long flight then that is already in the flight plan via the contingency fuel. If it is a short flight back to Dubai and the weather is good then 20 minutes holding isn't necessary. If it is a flight up to LHR we almost always hold for 10 minutes. If it is a flight where I routinely don't get my requested level or has other ATC or weather considerations that extra fuel is always nice to have.

The company's position is to take flight plan fuel unless there are over riding factors. They want us to note on the plan why we take extra fuel. Valid reasons are Weather, ATC, MEL, Alternate, and Other. When flying in SE Asia it isn't uncommon to have to wait out a T-Storm. When I used to fly into Subic Bay I had to do that a few times. Singapore is another place that can happen quite often. That is my primary reason for wanting that 20 minutes of holding fuel. Another is for not getting my requested level on certain routes. With that advent of RVSM that is less of an issue than it used to be, but it is still a significant considertion at certain times of the day on certain routes.

Our company keeps on writing about taking min fuel, but to my knowledge they haven't called anybody into the office to chat about chosen fuel loads over and above the flight plan. One good point the company makes is that it costs a lot to carry that extra fuel. We burn about 250 to 300 kilos of each extra 1000 kilos we carry on a 7 hour leg. So that extra 1000 kilos we chuck on is only 700 by the time we get to destination.

TP