Plane down in BUF

[PA31Driver]

Thinking back to EMB-145 sim training and PC's, a type ride and more PC's I seem to remember if you lower the nose to recover from a stall you will fail the stall portion of the checkride due to excessive altitude loss.

I was taught, for a clean stall: Maintain altitude, add full power...for a approach to landing stall, maintain altitude, add full power, retract flaps and gear on schedule.

Maybe they need to reevaluate how they are evaluating stall recovery for 121 PC's.

Anyone else have some input?

Exactly!

 

[jayme]

In the E120, when you test the stick shaker the test will fail if you don't resist hard against it and the yoke reaches the stop. That builds muscle memory to pull back when you get a shaker.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Thinking back to EMB-145 sim training and PC's, a type ride and more PC's I seem to remember if you lower the nose to recover from a stall you will fail the stall portion of the checkride due to excessive altitude loss.

I was taught, for a clean stall: Maintain altitude, add full power...for a approach to landing stall, maintain altitude, add full power, retract flaps and gear on schedule.

Maybe they need to reevaluate how they are evaluating stall recovery for 121 PC's.

Anyone else have some input?

When I started at Mesaba, the stalls in the sim were based on the syllabus for the actual airplane: climb to 10k, do some checklists, brief the stall, and then do the stall recovery.

Some of the instructors decided the "stall series" was useless and came up with some common scenarios where stall would occur and put you in them.

It was much more "real-world" and was a much better use of the scant amount of regional sim time.

 

[Simon Says]

Thinking back to EMB-145 sim training and PC's, a type ride and more PC's I seem to remember if you lower the nose to recover from a stall you will fail the stall portion of the checkride due to excessive altitude loss.

I was taught, for a clean stall: Maintain altitude, add full power...for a approach to landing stall, maintain altitude, add full power, retract flaps and gear on schedule.

Maybe they need to reevaluate how they are evaluating stall recovery for 121 PC's.

Anyone else have some input?

Not to bust on what you said, but I think what they really said is that you don't need to lower the nose below the horizon, but to lower it from the current pitch attitude.

I used to hear the instructor say don't lower the nose while recovering, but what they were really saying is "you don't need to lower it so much, just a 5 degrees or so.

 

[igneousy2]

Not to bust on what you said, but I think what they really said is that you don't need to lower the nose below the horizon, but to lower it from the current pitch attitude.

I used to hear the instructor say don't lower the nose while recovering, but what they were really saying is "you don't need to lower it so much, just a 5 degrees or so.

Maybe that's what yours were saying but I went through 7 121 training programs at 3 different airlines across 12 years and I was always taught to not let the nose drop at all...Altitude loss was always emphasized as the priority...in fact I remember being told that "you don't need to lower the nose because this isn't a 172...this airplane can power itself out of an imminant stall...no problem" during one of my first programs in the SF340 at American Eagle I recall having to get "retrained" in the stall series because I was letting the nose drop at the shaker.

 

[igneousy2]

Bulleted findings available at http://www.ntsb.gov/Publictn/2010/AAR1001.htm

Pretty interesting...

"The captain had not established a good foundation of attitude instrument flying skills early in his career, and his continued weaknesses in basic aircraft control and instrument flying were not identified and adequately addressed."

"The captain’s response to stick shaker activation should have been automatic, but his improper flight control inputs were inconsistent with his training and were instead consistent with startle and confusion."

"It is unlikely that the captain was deliberately attempting to perform a tailplane stall recovery. "

"The inclusion of the National Aeronautics and Space Administration icing video in Colgan Air’s winter operations training may lead pilots to assume that a tailplane stall might be possible in the Q400, resulting in negative training."

 

[waveflyer]

They 100% need to be said- but f^ck- to be responsible for all those lives and the reason they died- I couldn't imagine being family of this guy and have these things written- this is why we ought to keep studying and training hard-

And it's why what we do is important and NOT everyone should be doing it. And why we shouldn't get paid peanuts - but I can't tell you how many Pilots I've met that didn't agree with that statement....it's not about ego and chest thumping- what we do is very responsible. I pray for these pilots and their families--- along with the victims

By the way- good points on the letting the nose drop- there ought to be differences training in imminent stall and deep stall recovery

 

[igneousy2]

By the way- good points on the letting the nose drop- there ought to be differences training in imminent stall and deep stall recovery

I think their should be no difference because this is what got us into trouble in the first place. If you are surprised by the shaker then I would guess your SA is not where it needs to be to make a decision as to if you are in a full stall, deep stall, or imminent stall. The recovery needs to take place in muscle memory...you got the shaker because your SA was down - I don't think you'd be in a position to make a determination what kind of stall you are in.

 

[Mike man]

Not to bust on what you said, but I think what they really said is that you don't need to lower the nose below the horizon, but to lower it from the current pitch attitude.

No bubble busted...they told me DO NOT LOWER THE NOSE (I'm looking at my sim tips sheet and my notes on the page).

But maybe you missed the point, I was not trying to start a discussion on how to recover from various stalls in regional aircraft--but rather a discussion on how pilots do as they are trained...so maybe in Colgan Q400 school (taught by Flight Saftey -- in STL among others -- the same place I received my EMB145 training) they teach the same thing maintain attitude, add power.

 

[rajflyboy]

No bubble busted...they told me DO NOT LOWER THE NOSE (I'm looking at my sim tips sheet and my notes on the page).

But maybe you missed the point, I was not trying to start a discussion on how to recover from various stalls in regional aircraft--but rather a discussion on how pilots do as they are trained...so maybe in Colgan Q400 school (taught by Flight Saftey -- in STL among others -- the same place I received my EMB145 training) they teach the same thing maintain attitude, add power.

I agree 100%.

This crap about holding altitude isn't a good thing during stall recovery training. I blame the Feds and I also blame the training faciliities.

I have always used these techniques for Sim training or Checkride purpose's but nothing else. To recover from a stall you have to REDUCE angle of attack. The quickest way to do that is to lower the nose.

 

[s3jetman]

Not sure if anyone else has been through a PC check recently, but i just got back from mine and the stall recovery has changed at my airline. We do training in a deep stall situation now, never did before. The requirements for recover is now "Minimum Altitude Loss" as opposed to the number of 50 feet loss max which used to be the requirement. I think the Feds are realizing that teaching zero loss for years and years to a pilot the muscle memory is going to be for zero loss on stall recovery, not a good technique, never liked training it, or performing it. Minimal loss is a good practice.

 

[ultrarunner]

I'll be interested in my sim next month. We're flying a high performance jet. Been taught the same...at first indication of stall, TOGA, do NOT lower pitch, and recover with NO altitude loss...All this while the friggin stall warning is going on, the stick shaker banging away, and the aircraft WANTING to nose over because that is the aerodynamic tendency with full power application.

A SLIGHT reduction in AOA makes this maneuver go MUCH more smoothly, and I'd prly lost 100 feet or so, but NOOOOO....we want you to fight with the bitttch, and have ZERO LOSS.

So stupid....

 

[Simon Says]

No bubble busted...they told me DO NOT LOWER THE NOSE (I'm looking at my sim tips sheet and my notes on the page).

But maybe you missed the point, I was not trying to start a discussion on how to recover from various stalls in regional aircraft--but rather a discussion on how pilots do as they are trained...so maybe in Colgan Q400 school (taught by Flight Saftey -- in STL among others -- the same place I received my EMB145 training) they teach the same thing maintain attitude, add power.

Agreed, but I think a discussion on stall recovery is interesting on how other carriers do it.

 

[Mike man]

The requirements for recover is now "Minimum Altitude Loss" as opposed to the number of 50 feet loss max which used to be the requirement.

The ATP PTS says minimal altitude loss, and has since 2001.

 

[bubbers44]

I guess if max power in level flight works immediately, fine. Lowering the nose always helps stall recovery reducing AOA.