Plane down in BUF

[COpilot]

The guy on CNN, is some part 135 charter pilot who has no idea how the de-ice/anti-ice system works on a modern aircraft.

 

[BLUE BAYOU]

Looks like they lost control as they were extending flaps in icing conditions. Recorded transmitions between BUF APP and pilot didn't reveal anything-- they just didn't check in with BUF TWR on the handoff.

Very similar incident happened to an American Eagle ATR in Indiana a few years back. Speculative at this time though.

Our prayers are with all crewmembers of Colgan and the friends and families on board.

 

[Dizel8]

FDR, according to NTSB prelims, shows rapid oscillations in pitch and roll once flaps was extended.

 

[B-atch]

I recently taxied out behind a Colgan Q400 in EWR and noticed how little area the deicing boots cover the leading edges. Recalling the AE ATR 72 accident in Roselawn ID. back in 1994, it was determined that the ATR's wing deicing boots were inadequate. This resulted in significant ice build-up forward of the aileron hinge line.
Now a significant difference between these two accidents is, the Roselawn accident aircraft rolled on its back whereas this accident Q400 pitched then rolled. This might point to possible tail plane icing.

 

[astroglider]

Tail-plane icing

it's only speculation at this point but I have to agree...the data points to tail-plane icing and a subsequent tail-stall. Unlike the Roselawn crash...it's very similar to the J-31 Hibbing crash back in the '90's. Anytime an aircraft crashes at the OM in a vertical or inverted matter with the longitudinal axis parallel to the final approach course suspect tail-plane icing.

When the flaps were extended more taildown force was required to counter-act the extra lift created and that stalled the ice-covered tail.

Some airlines actually tell pilots to fly faster on approach...which is wrong...it only brings the aircraft tail closer to stall. If you suspect your tail is iced over use the minimum flaps setting possible. When lowering flaps KEEP YOU HAND ON THE FLAP LEVER! If the nose pitches up bring the flaps back to were they were before the pitching moment.

My thoughts are with the families.

 

[JungleJett]

Roselawn Indiana....

 

[pilotgolfer]

it's only speculation at this point but I have to agree...the data points to tail-plane icing and a subsequent tail-stall. Unlike the Roselawn crash...it's very similar to the J-31 Hibbing crash back in the '90's. Anytime an aircraft crashes at the OM in a vertical or inverted matter with the longitudinal axis parallel to the final approach course suspect tail-plane icing.

When the flaps were extended more taildown force was required to counter-act the extra lift created and that stalled the ice-covered tail.

Some airlines actually tell pilots to fly faster on approach...which is wrong...it only brings the aircraft tail closer to stall. If you suspect your tail is iced over use the minimum flaps setting possible. When lowering flaps KEEP YOU HAND ON THE FLAP LEVER! If the nose pitches up bring the flaps back to were they were before the pitching moment.

My thoughts are with the families.

The NTSB news conference I just saw was pretty interesting. He said the flaps were at 10. I wonder if they tried to retract the flaps from 15 after the plane pitched up. Stick shaker and pusher also went off. Plane was facing Northeast on the ground and they said it appeared to have gone in more or less in a flat attitude (didn't nosedive into house).

Its been years since I flew the Dash-200 but that version always carried the ice pretty well. The Q-400 always looked to me like the plane was was too long and the tail too small.

I wish the families the best.

 

[astroglider]

Newsources always seem to get it wrong...

CLARENCE, N.Y. - Airline officials have identified the crew of Capt. Marvin Renslowthat crashed as it approached Buffalo Niagara International Airport, killing all 49 people on board and one on the ground.
Pinnacle Airlines, the parent company of Colgan Air, which was operating the flight, says the pilot was Capt. Marvin Renslow, who joined the airline in September 2005 and had flown 3,379 hours with the carrier.
The first officer was Rebecca Shaw, who joined Colgan last January and had flown 2,244 hours with Colgan.

>>yeah she flew 2,244 hours in one year???<<<

 

[bluefin]

The Roselawn incident and the DTW brasilia incident changed procedures. After that you could not use the autopilot in icing conditions, everything had to be hand flown. The autopilot masked the corrections required during ice build up. After a while the autopilot would kick off and send the aircraft out of control. I wonder if that rule is still in effect? Was the autopilot on, masking the corrections required because of the ice build up. Just speculating......God speed to all.

Any of you recall the DHC6 video made by NASA engineers intetionally flying into ice and then inducing a tail plane stall? To Those of you who have seen it remember the final thing the Captain said, "We're not doing that again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" that is some wicked stuff.

 

[rajflyboy]

it's only speculation at this point but I have to agree...the data points to tail-plane icing and a subsequent tail-stall. Unlike the Roselawn crash...it's very similar to the J-31 Hibbing crash back in the '90's. Anytime an aircraft crashes at the OM in a vertical or inverted matter with the longitudinal axis parallel to the final approach course suspect tail-plane icing.

When the flaps were extended more taildown force was required to counter-act the extra lift created and that stalled the ice-covered tail.

Some airlines actually tell pilots to fly faster on approach...which is wrong...it only brings the aircraft tail closer to stall. If you suspect your tail is iced over use the minimum flaps setting possible. When lowering flaps KEEP YOU HAND ON THE FLAP LEVER! If the nose pitches up bring the flaps back to were they were before the pitching moment.

My thoughts are with the families.

You hear this but you never hear an actual speed that you should fly??

Ref? Ref and 10? Ref and 30?

If you think you have an ice problem why would you get anywhere near ref or ref and 10?? You are just asking for trouble at those speeds with an unknown amount of ice on the airplane.