Plane down in BUF

[JungleJett]

Roselawn Indiana....

 

[pilotgolfer]

it's only speculation at this point but I have to agree...the data points to tail-plane icing and a subsequent tail-stall. Unlike the Roselawn crash...it's very similar to the J-31 Hibbing crash back in the '90's. Anytime an aircraft crashes at the OM in a vertical or inverted matter with the longitudinal axis parallel to the final approach course suspect tail-plane icing.

When the flaps were extended more taildown force was required to counter-act the extra lift created and that stalled the ice-covered tail.

Some airlines actually tell pilots to fly faster on approach...which is wrong...it only brings the aircraft tail closer to stall. If you suspect your tail is iced over use the minimum flaps setting possible. When lowering flaps KEEP YOU HAND ON THE FLAP LEVER! If the nose pitches up bring the flaps back to were they were before the pitching moment.

My thoughts are with the families.

The NTSB news conference I just saw was pretty interesting. He said the flaps were at 10. I wonder if they tried to retract the flaps from 15 after the plane pitched up. Stick shaker and pusher also went off. Plane was facing Northeast on the ground and they said it appeared to have gone in more or less in a flat attitude (didn't nosedive into house).

Its been years since I flew the Dash-200 but that version always carried the ice pretty well. The Q-400 always looked to me like the plane was was too long and the tail too small.

I wish the families the best.

 

[astroglider]

Newsources always seem to get it wrong...

CLARENCE, N.Y. - Airline officials have identified the crew of Capt. Marvin Renslowthat crashed as it approached Buffalo Niagara International Airport, killing all 49 people on board and one on the ground.
Pinnacle Airlines, the parent company of Colgan Air, which was operating the flight, says the pilot was Capt. Marvin Renslow, who joined the airline in September 2005 and had flown 3,379 hours with the carrier.
The first officer was Rebecca Shaw, who joined Colgan last January and had flown 2,244 hours with Colgan.

>>yeah she flew 2,244 hours in one year???<<<

 

[bluefin]

The Roselawn incident and the DTW brasilia incident changed procedures. After that you could not use the autopilot in icing conditions, everything had to be hand flown. The autopilot masked the corrections required during ice build up. After a while the autopilot would kick off and send the aircraft out of control. I wonder if that rule is still in effect? Was the autopilot on, masking the corrections required because of the ice build up. Just speculating......God speed to all.

Any of you recall the DHC6 video made by NASA engineers intetionally flying into ice and then inducing a tail plane stall? To Those of you who have seen it remember the final thing the Captain said, "We're not doing that again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" that is some wicked stuff.

 

[rajflyboy]

it's only speculation at this point but I have to agree...the data points to tail-plane icing and a subsequent tail-stall. Unlike the Roselawn crash...it's very similar to the J-31 Hibbing crash back in the '90's. Anytime an aircraft crashes at the OM in a vertical or inverted matter with the longitudinal axis parallel to the final approach course suspect tail-plane icing.

When the flaps were extended more taildown force was required to counter-act the extra lift created and that stalled the ice-covered tail.

Some airlines actually tell pilots to fly faster on approach...which is wrong...it only brings the aircraft tail closer to stall. If you suspect your tail is iced over use the minimum flaps setting possible. When lowering flaps KEEP YOU HAND ON THE FLAP LEVER! If the nose pitches up bring the flaps back to were they were before the pitching moment.

My thoughts are with the families.

You hear this but you never hear an actual speed that you should fly??

Ref? Ref and 10? Ref and 30?

If you think you have an ice problem why would you get anywhere near ref or ref and 10?? You are just asking for trouble at those speeds with an unknown amount of ice on the airplane.

 

[PlaneDrvr]

The Roselawn incident and the DTW brasilia incident changed procedures. After that you could not use the autopilot in icing conditions, everything had to be hand flown. The autopilot masked the corrections required during ice build up. After a while the autopilot would kick off and send the aircraft out of control. I wonder if that rule is still in effect? Was the autopilot on, masking the corrections required because of the ice build up. Just speculating......God speed to all.

Any of you recall the DHC6 video made by NASA engineers intetionally flying into ice and then inducing a tail plane stall? To Those of you who have seen it remember the final thing the Captain said, "We're not doing that again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" that is some wicked stuff.

It was just released from the NTSB, that the A/P was ON at the time of the crash. Also reported, evidence of the wreckage, shows the A/P still in the 'engaged' position.

So I guess with the A/P ON, they had absolutely No idea of the control forces on the A/C as a result of the ice.

NTSB news conference today at 4:00PM EST.

For what its worth.

PD

 

[glasspilot1]

The reports are that the deice system was turned on. Question for those that fly this airplane: When you turn on the deice system do all the boots activate at once? Or do the wings blow, and then the tail later? I'm just wondering if the wings had been cleared but the tailplane was still iced.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Any of you recall the DHC6 video made by NASA engineers intetionally flying into ice and then inducing a tail plane stall? To Those of you who have seen it remember the final thing the Captain said, "We're not doing that again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" that is some wicked stuff.

Here you go:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

...it's very similar to the J-31 Hibbing crash back in the '90's. Anytime an aircraft crashes at the OM in a vertical or inverted matter with the longitudinal axis parallel to the final approach course suspect tail-plane icing..

I thought Hibbing was due to being high on the profile, causing an unstabilized descent that wasn't arrested.

 

[MELVIS]

ImbracableCrunk, you thought right. Also have heard some major breaches of good CRM as well, regarding the Hibbing accident.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

So, we're due for a bunch of AD's, procedure changes, limitations, and yearly online icing re-currency courses?

CE

 

[flying zephyr]

The Hibbing crash was mostly due to the captain. He is the reason that training records follow you everywhere. He mentally and Physically intimidated FOs during flights and the company knew about it but never did anything. I think during the accident investigation the FAA thought that they could hear the captain hit the FO in the headset "if that noise can be identified on a FDR" It was some pretty whacky stuff. The FAA even blamed themselves for it a little bit. Not sure if you can find the NTSB report, but it couldn't be too hard.

 

[Singlecoil]

and here is the Hibbing probable cause...
NTSB Identification: DCA94MA022 .
The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 52863.
Scheduled 14 CFR
Accident occurred Wednesday, December 01, 1993 in HIBBING, MN
Probable Cause Approval Date: 12/27/1994
Aircraft: JETSTREAM BA-3100, registration: N334PX
Injuries: 18 Fatal.WHILE ON A LOCALIZER BACK COURSE APPROACH THE AIRPLANE COLLIDED WITH TREES AND THE TERRAIN APRX 3 MI FROM THE RUNWAY THRESHOLD. THE CAPTAIN DELAYED THE START OF THE DESCENT THAT SUBSEQUENTLY REQUIRED AN EXCESSIVE DESCENT RATE TO REACH THE FAF AND MDH. THE CAPTAIN'S ACTIONS LED TO DISTRACTIONS DURING CRITICAL PHASES OF THE APPROACH. THE FLIGHTCREW LOST ALTITUDE AWARENESS AND ALLOWED THE AIRPLANE TO DESCEND BELOW MANDATORY LEVEL OFF POINTS. THE CAPTAIN'S RECORD RAISED QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS AIRMANSHIP AND BEHAVIOR THAT SUGGESTED A LACK OF CREW COORDINATION DURING FLIGHT OPERATIONS, INCLUDING INTIMIDATION OF FIRST OFFICERS. COMPANY MANAGEMENT DID NOT ADDRESS THESE MATTERS ADEQUATELY. THE AIRLINE'S FLIGHT OPERATIONS MANAGEMENT FAILED TO IMPLEMENT PROVISIONS TO ADEQUATELY OVERSEE THE TRAINING OF THEIR FLIGHTCREWS AND THE OPERATION OF THEIR AIRCRAFT. FAA GUIDANCE TO THEIR INSPECTORS CONCERNING IMPLEMENTATION OF OPS BULLETINS IS INADEQUATE AND HAS FAILED TO TRANSMIT VALUABLE SAFETY INFORMATION AS INTENDED TO AIRLINES.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
THE CAPTAIN'S ACTIONS THAT LED TO A BREAKDOWN IN CREW COORDINATION AND THE LOSS OF ALTITUDE AWARENESS BY THE FLIGHTCREW DURING AN UNSTABILIZED APPROACH IN NIGHT INSTRUMENT METEOROLOGICAL CONDITIONS. CONTRIBUTING TO THE ACCIDENT WERE: THE FAILURE OF THE COMPANY MANAGEMENT TO ADEQUATELY ADDRESS THE PREVIOUSLY IDENTIFIED DEFICIENCIES IN AIRMANSHIP AND CREW RESOURCE MANAGEMENT OF THE CAPTAIN; THE FAILURE OF THE COMPANY TO IDENTIFY AND CORRECT A WIDESPREAD, UNAPPROVED PRACTICE DURING INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURES; AND THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION'S INADEQUATE SURVEILLANCE AND OVERSIGHT OF THE AIR CARRIER. (NTSB REPORT AAR-94/05)

 

[rajflyboy]

The Hibbing crash was mostly due to the captain. He is the reason that training records follow you everywhere. He mentally and Physically intimidated FOs during flights and the company knew about it but never did anything. I think during the accident investigation the FAA thought that they could hear the captain hit the FO in the headset "if that noise can be identified on a FDR" It was some pretty whacky stuff. The FAA even blamed themselves for it a little bit. Not sure if you can find the NTSB report, but it couldn't be too hard.

Wrong Crash

The RDU crash is the one that caused the "Records Forwarding Deal"

 

[CaptJax]

Pilot Of Doomed Flt Described As "By The Book"

Feb 21, 2:53 PM EST

Pilot of doomed flight described as 'by the book'
By CHRISTINE ARMARIO
Associated Press Writer

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) -- Marvin Renslow's dream of becoming a commercial pilot did not come easy. For years he had to fit his training around jobs in travel reservations and sales. Even after he got hired by a regional carrier he had to moonlight at a grocery, stocking shelves to make ends meet for his wife and two children.
It's that kind of dedication that makes Renslow's friends cringe to hear that his actions at the controls may be to blame for the plane crash that killed 50 people outside Buffalo, N.Y., this month. They describe him as meticulous, levelheaded and in love with the job it took him until his early 40s to achieve.
"He was always by the book," said Jeff Linquist, a former roommate and a pilot with a private license. "There's a lot of guys out there that do fly by the seat of their pants, but he wasn't one of them."
Renslow, 47, was at the controls of Continental Connection Flight 3407 from Newark, N.J., to Buffalo in icing conditions on Feb. 12 when the plane tumbled wildly out of control and plummeted onto a house, where it burst into flames. All 49 people aboard the plane and one man in the house died.
A National Transportation Safety Board member said the pilot appeared to have ignored recommendations from the NTSB and his employer that the autopilot be turned off in icy conditions. Investigators also raised the possibility the pilot overreacted by yanking the yoke back, further destabilizing the plane.
Renslow's employer, Colgan Air, said he was qualified "fully in accordance with all applicable Federal Aviation Regulations."
To Renslow's former colleagues, the phrase "pilot error" hardly matches up with the man they knew as a cool and collected manager who studied aviation for more than a decade before finally getting his commercial license.
"It makes me mad," said Denise Gambill Harrison, who worked with Renslow at Piedmont Airlines, where he worked in travel reservations. Harrison said she helped Renslow study for his pilot's license and that he once flew her in a small aircraft over North Carolina. "He's a very thought-precise person. He thinks. Sometimes too much, probably."
Renslow's path to the sky was far different than that of Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger, the pilot hailed as a hero after ditching his disabled US Airways jet in the Hudson River in New York last month with no loss of life. Sullenberger started flying as a teenager and went on to fly fighter planes, investigate air disasters and work as a safety consultant.
Renslow, who lived in the Tampa suburb of Lutz, worked for years on the margins of the aviation field, booking other people's flights and vying to one day command a plane himself. He took flying lessons, then became a professional pilot after the company he was working at offered a buyout, a close friend said.
"He loved it," Linquist said. "He just was always talking about it."
Becoming a pilot can be expensive and starting salaries for a commuter pilot meager - less than $20,000 annually for a co-pilot at a regional airline. Renslow stocked shelves and did other jobs at Publix supermarket to help support his family, though the grocery chain said he was not working there at the time of the crash.
The son of a welder, Renslow grew up in Shenandoah, Iowa, a town of about 5,000 in the southwestern part of the state. In high school, he worked part time at the local Hy-Vee supermarket stocking shelves and helping customers with their groceries, and played drums in the school band, friends said.
He was the kind of guy who would help pull your car out of a ditch, and was well-liked among his peers. But his aspirations were larger than small-town Iowa, and he headed to Florida soon after graduation.
After briefly studying hospitality, Renslow went to work for the Howard Johnson hotel chain, then worked in travel reservations for Piedmont Airlines, which later became a subsidiary of US Airways.
The job allowed him to travel to places like Korea and Australia, said Linquist, who lived with Renslow before his friend married. It was also at Piedmont that Renslow met his wife, Sandy.
"From the very beginning, he would always talk about her," Linquist said.
Renslow's job eventually took him to Winston-Salem, N.C., where he worked for American Express, handling travel arrangements for R.J. Reynolds. The position sent him around the country about 32 weeks a year, said Dawn Teem, a former colleague. They'd go to NASCAR and other sporting events, making sure clients and VIPs were comfortable.
Teem described Renslow as the go-to person, the one always in control and who never lost his calm demeanor and sense of humor. When roads were icy, he'd put chains on his tires and take her to work.
"I was terrified," Teem recalled. "He wasn't."
Renslow's dream of becoming a pilot was slowly starting to pick up. He took aviation classes from Guilford Technical Community College, earning his degree in 1992, and soon earned his private, instrument, single and multiengine ratings. But he was married and had a young child, so he couldn't afford to become a commercial pilot then.
The budding aviator was enamored with piloting.
"You can't really explain the feeling until you've actually done it," Linquist said.
A few years later, Renslow returned to Florida with American Express, still inching toward his dream. From a cubicle, he'd oversee 15 to 20 workers making travel arrangements for corporate clients. On his desk: A few model airplanes.
In 1999, Renslow went to work for Verizon as a sales consultant. Around 2003, he decided to take a company buyout and pursue his dream.
He enrolled at Gulfstream Training Academy in Fort Lauderdale, then got his first flying job with Gulfstream International Airlines Inc. He worked there from August 2004 through April 2005, with an airline lawyer saying there is "nothing notable in his file that stands out."
For the past 3 1/2 years, Renslow flew for Colgan Air, which operates regional commuter flights for companies including Continental Connections. Linquist said Renslow flew for a while out of Texas and loved the job.
The requirements for a regional pilot are the same as those for flying larger commercial aircraft; both are subject to the same Federal Aviation Administration licensing standards. Many pilots start off in the regional airlines before moving on to major carriers. A regional pilot might start at $40,000 annually, while major carrier pilots earn more than $100,000.
Renslow had 3,379 total hours of flight experience and had 172 hours of formal training on the Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 aircraft he was flying that night. He also had thousands of hours flying a similar, smaller turboprop plane, which experts say would have prepared him for handling the Dash 8 in icy weather.
Family members gathered at his church in a Tampa suburb Friday for a memorial service.
"My dad did everything he could to save the lives of the people on the plane," Kaley Renslow, 12, said at the service. "But it was just his time. Along with everyone else."