Plane down in BUF

[PlaneDrvr]

The Roselawn incident and the DTW brasilia incident changed procedures. After that you could not use the autopilot in icing conditions, everything had to be hand flown. The autopilot masked the corrections required during ice build up. After a while the autopilot would kick off and send the aircraft out of control. I wonder if that rule is still in effect? Was the autopilot on, masking the corrections required because of the ice build up. Just speculating......God speed to all.

Any of you recall the DHC6 video made by NASA engineers intetionally flying into ice and then inducing a tail plane stall? To Those of you who have seen it remember the final thing the Captain said, "We're not doing that again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" that is some wicked stuff.

It was just released from the NTSB, that the A/P was ON at the time of the crash. Also reported, evidence of the wreckage, shows the A/P still in the 'engaged' position.

So I guess with the A/P ON, they had absolutely No idea of the control forces on the A/C as a result of the ice.

NTSB news conference today at 4:00PM EST.

For what its worth.

PD

 

[glasspilot1]

The reports are that the deice system was turned on. Question for those that fly this airplane: When you turn on the deice system do all the boots activate at once? Or do the wings blow, and then the tail later? I'm just wondering if the wings had been cleared but the tailplane was still iced.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Any of you recall the DHC6 video made by NASA engineers intetionally flying into ice and then inducing a tail plane stall? To Those of you who have seen it remember the final thing the Captain said, "We're not doing that again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" that is some wicked stuff.

Here you go:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2238323060735779946

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

...it's very similar to the J-31 Hibbing crash back in the '90's. Anytime an aircraft crashes at the OM in a vertical or inverted matter with the longitudinal axis parallel to the final approach course suspect tail-plane icing..

I thought Hibbing was due to being high on the profile, causing an unstabilized descent that wasn't arrested.

 

[MELVIS]

ImbracableCrunk, you thought right. Also have heard some major breaches of good CRM as well, regarding the Hibbing accident.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

So, we're due for a bunch of AD's, procedure changes, limitations, and yearly online icing re-currency courses?

CE

 

[flying zephyr]

The Hibbing crash was mostly due to the captain. He is the reason that training records follow you everywhere. He mentally and Physically intimidated FOs during flights and the company knew about it but never did anything. I think during the accident investigation the FAA thought that they could hear the captain hit the FO in the headset "if that noise can be identified on a FDR" It was some pretty whacky stuff. The FAA even blamed themselves for it a little bit. Not sure if you can find the NTSB report, but it couldn't be too hard.

 

[Singlecoil]

and here is the Hibbing probable cause...
NTSB Identification: DCA94MA022 .
The docket is stored on NTSB microfiche number 52863.
Scheduled 14 CFR
Accident occurred Wednesday, December 01, 1993 in HIBBING, MN
Probable Cause Approval Date: 12/27/1994
Aircraft: JETSTREAM BA-3100, registration: N334PX
Injuries: 18 Fatal.WHILE ON A LOCALIZER BACK COURSE APPROACH THE AIRPLANE COLLIDED WITH TREES AND THE TERRAIN APRX 3 MI FROM THE RUNWAY THRESHOLD. THE CAPTAIN DELAYED THE START OF THE DESCENT THAT SUBSEQUENTLY REQUIRED AN EXCESSIVE DESCENT RATE TO REACH THE FAF AND MDH. THE CAPTAIN'S ACTIONS LED TO DISTRACTIONS DURING CRITICAL PHASES OF THE APPROACH. THE FLIGHTCREW LOST ALTITUDE AWARENESS AND ALLOWED THE AIRPLANE TO DESCEND BELOW MANDATORY LEVEL OFF POINTS. THE CAPTAIN'S RECORD RAISED QUESTIONS ABOUT HIS AIRMANSHIP AND BEHAVIOR THAT SUGGESTED A LACK OF CREW COORDINATION DURING FLIGHT OPERATIONS, INCLUDING INTIMIDATION OF FIRST OFFICERS. COMPANY MANAGEMENT DID NOT ADDRESS THESE MATTERS ADEQUATELY. THE AIRLINE'S FLIGHT OPERATIONS MANAGEMENT FAILED TO IMPLEMENT PROVISIONS TO ADEQUATELY OVERSEE THE TRAINING OF THEIR FLIGHTCREWS AND THE OPERATION OF THEIR AIRCRAFT. FAA GUIDANCE TO THEIR INSPECTORS CONCERNING IMPLEMENTATION OF OPS BULLETINS IS INADEQUATE AND HAS FAILED TO TRANSMIT VALUABLE SAFETY INFORMATION AS INTENDED TO AIRLINES.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
THE CAPTAIN'S ACTIONS THAT LED TO A BREAKDOWN IN CREW COORDINATION AND THE LOSS OF ALTITUDE AWARENESS BY THE FLIGHTCREW DURING AN UNSTABILIZED APPROACH IN NIGHT INSTRUMENT METEOROLOGICAL CONDITIONS. CONTRIBUTING TO THE ACCIDENT WERE: THE FAILURE OF THE COMPANY MANAGEMENT TO ADEQUATELY ADDRESS THE PREVIOUSLY IDENTIFIED DEFICIENCIES IN AIRMANSHIP AND CREW RESOURCE MANAGEMENT OF THE CAPTAIN; THE FAILURE OF THE COMPANY TO IDENTIFY AND CORRECT A WIDESPREAD, UNAPPROVED PRACTICE DURING INSTRUMENT APPROACH PROCEDURES; AND THE FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION'S INADEQUATE SURVEILLANCE AND OVERSIGHT OF THE AIR CARRIER. (NTSB REPORT AAR-94/05)

 

[rajflyboy]

The Hibbing crash was mostly due to the captain. He is the reason that training records follow you everywhere. He mentally and Physically intimidated FOs during flights and the company knew about it but never did anything. I think during the accident investigation the FAA thought that they could hear the captain hit the FO in the headset "if that noise can be identified on a FDR" It was some pretty whacky stuff. The FAA even blamed themselves for it a little bit. Not sure if you can find the NTSB report, but it couldn't be too hard.

Wrong Crash

The RDU crash is the one that caused the "Records Forwarding Deal"

 

[CaptJax]

Pilot Of Doomed Flt Described As "By The Book"

Feb 21, 2:53 PM EST

Pilot of doomed flight described as 'by the book'
By CHRISTINE ARMARIO
Associated Press Writer

TAMPA, Fla. (AP) -- Marvin Renslow's dream of becoming a commercial pilot did not come easy. For years he had to fit his training around jobs in travel reservations and sales. Even after he got hired by a regional carrier he had to moonlight at a grocery, stocking shelves to make ends meet for his wife and two children.
It's that kind of dedication that makes Renslow's friends cringe to hear that his actions at the controls may be to blame for the plane crash that killed 50 people outside Buffalo, N.Y., this month. They describe him as meticulous, levelheaded and in love with the job it took him until his early 40s to achieve.
"He was always by the book," said Jeff Linquist, a former roommate and a pilot with a private license. "There's a lot of guys out there that do fly by the seat of their pants, but he wasn't one of them."
Renslow, 47, was at the controls of Continental Connection Flight 3407 from Newark, N.J., to Buffalo in icing conditions on Feb. 12 when the plane tumbled wildly out of control and plummeted onto a house, where it burst into flames. All 49 people aboard the plane and one man in the house died.
A National Transportation Safety Board member said the pilot appeared to have ignored recommendations from the NTSB and his employer that the autopilot be turned off in icy conditions. Investigators also raised the possibility the pilot overreacted by yanking the yoke back, further destabilizing the plane.
Renslow's employer, Colgan Air, said he was qualified "fully in accordance with all applicable Federal Aviation Regulations."
To Renslow's former colleagues, the phrase "pilot error" hardly matches up with the man they knew as a cool and collected manager who studied aviation for more than a decade before finally getting his commercial license.
"It makes me mad," said Denise Gambill Harrison, who worked with Renslow at Piedmont Airlines, where he worked in travel reservations. Harrison said she helped Renslow study for his pilot's license and that he once flew her in a small aircraft over North Carolina. "He's a very thought-precise person. He thinks. Sometimes too much, probably."
Renslow's path to the sky was far different than that of Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger, the pilot hailed as a hero after ditching his disabled US Airways jet in the Hudson River in New York last month with no loss of life. Sullenberger started flying as a teenager and went on to fly fighter planes, investigate air disasters and work as a safety consultant.
Renslow, who lived in the Tampa suburb of Lutz, worked for years on the margins of the aviation field, booking other people's flights and vying to one day command a plane himself. He took flying lessons, then became a professional pilot after the company he was working at offered a buyout, a close friend said.
"He loved it," Linquist said. "He just was always talking about it."
Becoming a pilot can be expensive and starting salaries for a commuter pilot meager - less than $20,000 annually for a co-pilot at a regional airline. Renslow stocked shelves and did other jobs at Publix supermarket to help support his family, though the grocery chain said he was not working there at the time of the crash.
The son of a welder, Renslow grew up in Shenandoah, Iowa, a town of about 5,000 in the southwestern part of the state. In high school, he worked part time at the local Hy-Vee supermarket stocking shelves and helping customers with their groceries, and played drums in the school band, friends said.
He was the kind of guy who would help pull your car out of a ditch, and was well-liked among his peers. But his aspirations were larger than small-town Iowa, and he headed to Florida soon after graduation.
After briefly studying hospitality, Renslow went to work for the Howard Johnson hotel chain, then worked in travel reservations for Piedmont Airlines, which later became a subsidiary of US Airways.
The job allowed him to travel to places like Korea and Australia, said Linquist, who lived with Renslow before his friend married. It was also at Piedmont that Renslow met his wife, Sandy.
"From the very beginning, he would always talk about her," Linquist said.
Renslow's job eventually took him to Winston-Salem, N.C., where he worked for American Express, handling travel arrangements for R.J. Reynolds. The position sent him around the country about 32 weeks a year, said Dawn Teem, a former colleague. They'd go to NASCAR and other sporting events, making sure clients and VIPs were comfortable.
Teem described Renslow as the go-to person, the one always in control and who never lost his calm demeanor and sense of humor. When roads were icy, he'd put chains on his tires and take her to work.
"I was terrified," Teem recalled. "He wasn't."
Renslow's dream of becoming a pilot was slowly starting to pick up. He took aviation classes from Guilford Technical Community College, earning his degree in 1992, and soon earned his private, instrument, single and multiengine ratings. But he was married and had a young child, so he couldn't afford to become a commercial pilot then.
The budding aviator was enamored with piloting.
"You can't really explain the feeling until you've actually done it," Linquist said.
A few years later, Renslow returned to Florida with American Express, still inching toward his dream. From a cubicle, he'd oversee 15 to 20 workers making travel arrangements for corporate clients. On his desk: A few model airplanes.
In 1999, Renslow went to work for Verizon as a sales consultant. Around 2003, he decided to take a company buyout and pursue his dream.
He enrolled at Gulfstream Training Academy in Fort Lauderdale, then got his first flying job with Gulfstream International Airlines Inc. He worked there from August 2004 through April 2005, with an airline lawyer saying there is "nothing notable in his file that stands out."
For the past 3 1/2 years, Renslow flew for Colgan Air, which operates regional commuter flights for companies including Continental Connections. Linquist said Renslow flew for a while out of Texas and loved the job.
The requirements for a regional pilot are the same as those for flying larger commercial aircraft; both are subject to the same Federal Aviation Administration licensing standards. Many pilots start off in the regional airlines before moving on to major carriers. A regional pilot might start at $40,000 annually, while major carrier pilots earn more than $100,000.
Renslow had 3,379 total hours of flight experience and had 172 hours of formal training on the Bombardier Dash 8 Q400 aircraft he was flying that night. He also had thousands of hours flying a similar, smaller turboprop plane, which experts say would have prepared him for handling the Dash 8 in icy weather.
Family members gathered at his church in a Tampa suburb Friday for a memorial service.
"My dad did everything he could to save the lives of the people on the plane," Kaley Renslow, 12, said at the service. "But it was just his time. Along with everyone else."

 

[CaptJax]

Flt 3407 Rocked Like A Roller Coaster Before Fall

Flight 3407 Rocked Like A Roller Coaster Before Fall

Feb 16,5:02 PM EST

by Ramit Plushnick-Masti
Associated Press Writer

BUFFALO, N.Y. (AP) -- Seats are upright. Belts are buckled. Trays are up. Flight 3407 is beginning its descent to Buffalo Niagara International Airport. And then something suddenly goes terribly wrong.
The 44 passengers are lifted from their seats - like on a roller coaster - very abruptly and repeatedly. Simultaneously, they are forcefully jostled from side to side.
But the severe pitches and rolls that jerked the plane's nose down, up and then down again from 31 degrees to 45 degrees while rolling violently from side to side, once as much as 105 degrees and almost onto the plane's back - would have ended within 20 seconds when the plane hit the ground.
Pilots and experts say a sense of panic was likely setting in among passengers on the turboprop Continental commuter plane, but they probably did not have time to realize they were crashing.
"Just panic. They were feeling things they've never felt before, but it wouldn't have been: `We're going down. We're going down,'" said Skip Moshner, a pilot and instructor for the type of plane that crashed Thursday night in Clarence, N.Y., barely three minutes from touchdown.
"Nobody suffered in this crash," Moshner said.
Passengers may have first noticed something was awry minutes before the pitching and rolling.
At about 16,000 feet, the pilot reported haze to the control tower and asked to descend.
As the aircraft passed through clouds, it encountered ice and likely shook from turbulence in the mist and snow, Moshner said. The plane's deicers would have broken up the ice, the wind flinging it off the wings and propellers, knocking chunks of it against the side of the aircraft, loud enough for passengers to hear.
"That would be alarming in significant ice if you hadn't heard it before, but it's routine," Moshner said.
The plane continued its descent. The landing gear was brought down and flaps were opened to 5 degrees at about 2,000 feet. As the pilot tried to open the flaps further - somewhere between 10 and 15 degrees - the control yoke shook in his hand, indicating the plane was losing lift.
Then, it indicated he was going to stall - an aerodynamic phenomenon that means something such as ice has corrupted the wings or tail, or possibly both, making the plane unbalanced and unable to fly.
"The plane's out of control so it's banking over. It may feel like it's upside-down," said Moshner, who as a flight simulator instructor often mimics similar circumstances for his students so they know what a crash or loss of control would feel like.
"It's going to feel like you're rolling over or you're upside-down. You may be vertical or 90 degrees on your side, but it's going to feel like you're upside-down," he said. "The drinks are probably going flying. Anything loose is going to be airborne."
Still, looking out the window would not have helped a passenger determine exactly what was happening to the aircraft because it was dark and the weather was bad, said John Hansman, a Massachusetts Institute of Technology professor who specializes in flight safety.
Then, the plane dropped 800 feet in just five seconds.
Passengers would have felt like the bottom was dropping out. The plane rolled right and pitched down once more, facing away from the airport.
"Adrenaline and fear factor take over and then it's over," Moshner said.
It lasted only 15 to 30 seconds, but the episode is likely to be studied for decades.
"It takes longer to describe it than the whole incident occurred. Pitch up, pitch down, roll, roll, pitch up, roll and it's done, that quick," Moshner said.

 

[CaptJax]

FAA To Inspect Pilot Training At Regionals


FAA to inspect pilot training at regional airlines

By JOAN LOWY, Associated Press Writer

Tuesday, June 9, 2009


(06-09) 13:50 PDT WASHINGTON (AP) --

Federal officials said Tuesday they will beef up inspection of pilot training programs at regional airlines in response to safety concerns raised by the crash of a regional airliner in New York in February

Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood and Federal Aviation Administrator Randy Babbitt said in a statement they will also hold a meeting with the airline industry — both regional and major carriers — next week to seek better pilot training, cockpit discipline and other safety improvements.

Babbitt said it was clear from the crash of a regional airliner near Buffalo, N.Y., on Feb. 12 that safety needs to be improved.

"My goal is to make sure that the entire industry, from large commercial carriers to smaller regional operators, is meeting our safety standard," Babbitt said in a statement.

James May, president of the Air Transport Association, which represents large airlines, called the meeting "an important step." He compared it to a government-industry collaboration two years ago to reduce dangerous runway incidents.

Roger Cohen, president of the Regional Airline Association, also endorsed the meeting.

"Safety always has been and always will be our number one priority," Cohen said in a statement

Testimony at a National Transportation Safety Board hearing last month revealed that a series of critical errors by the captain and co-pilot preceded the crash of Continental Express Flight 3407 as it neared Buffalo Niagara International Airport on Feb. 12. The plane experienced an aerodynamic stall before plunging to the ground, killing all 49 aboard and one man in a house on the ground.

The flight was operated for Continental by Colgan Air Inc. of Manassas, Va. Testimony at the hearing indicated the flight's captain may not have had hands-on training on a critical cockpit safety system. The cockpit voice recorder showed the co-pilot describing her lack of experience flying in icy weather not long before the crash.

The NTSB investigation has also raised concern that pilot fatigue may have been a factor in the crash. The co-pilot, Rebecca Shaw, lived near Seattle with her parents and had commuted all-night to get to Newark Liberty International Airport in New Jersey, where Flight 3407 originated. The captain, Marvin Renslow, commuted to work from his home in Tampa, Fla. It's not clear where either of them slept the night before the crash or how much sleep they received.

Testimony at the hearing indicated they may have tried to snatch sleep in a crew lounge at the airport in violation of company policy. The pair were chitchatting just before the crash, which may have prevented them from realizing the airspeed of the twin-engine turboprop had dropped dangerously low.

Jeff Skiles, the co-captain of the US Airways flight that made a safe emergency landing in the Hudson River in January, said most regional airline pilots are well qualified but "there are cracks in the system."

Interviewed Tuesday on CBS'"The Early Show," Skiles said the current rest rules "are less restrictive than truck drivers work under. Once you've been on duty for 13 hours, you are about 500 percent more likely to make an error, and once you've been on duty for 16 hours, you have the response rate of somebody who is legally drunk."

Colgan officials testified at the hearing that Shaw, who had worked for the airline a little over a year, earned about $16,000 her first year. A company spokesman, Joe Williams, later said she earned $23,900. Colgan officials also testified that pilots with Renslow's experience typically earned about $55,000 a year; Williams said the correct figure was about $67,000.

A Senate panel is scheduled to hold a hearing Wednesday on FAA oversight of regional airlines; the House holds a hearing Thursday.

 

[CaptJax]

Exec Says Pilot Should Not Have Flown

Exec Says Pilot Should Not Have Flown
Captain in Crash That Killed 50 Had Failed Five Pilot Tests
CNN


(Aug. 7) -- An airline executive whose plane crashed earlier this year said although the pilot was "a fine man by all accounts," had the airline "known what we know now ... he would not have been in that seat."
Colgan Air Flight 3407 crashed near Buffalo, N.Y., on Feb. 12, killing all 49 on the plane and one person on the ground.

After the deadly accident, it was revealed by Colgan Air that the pilot, Capt. Marvin Renslow, had failed five pilot tests, known as 'check-rides,' three of which occurred before he joined the airline. Renslow had revealed only one of those failures to the airline, according to Colgan.
Philip Trenary, president and CEO of Pinnacle Airlines, which is the parent company of Colgan Air, told the Senate Commerce, Science and Transportation Committee on Thursday that while "a failure on a check-ride is not necessarily a reason for someone not to fly, it depends on what kind of failure it is."
"The failures that we were unable to see were the basic fundamental failures that you would not want to have," Trenary told the hearing, which was examining relationships between regional airline networks and safety issues.

"Let me stress one thing, Capt. Renslow was a fine man by all accounts," Trenary said. But he added, "Had we known what we know now, no, he would not have been in that seat."
In response to speculation that Renslow was impaired by fatigue, Trenary told the committee the fatigue policy of both Pinnacle and Colgan airlines is clear. "If a pilot is fatigued for any reason, all they have to do is say so and they are excused from duty. The night of (Flight) 3407, we did have 11 reserve pilots available."

Colgan has insisted that pilot fatigue was not a factor in the crash, noting that Renslow had "nearly 22 consecutive hours of time off before he reported for duty on the day of the accident."
There were also reports that Renslow's co-pilot, Rebecca Shaw, was feeling ill and had considered backing out of the flight, according to a cockpit voice recorder transcript released by the National Transportation Safety Board.
The flight, which was part of the Continental Connection schedule, plunged into a house in Clarence Center, N.Y.

According to investigators, the crash resulted from Renslow's incorrect response to a precarious drop in air speed. Renslow reportedly overrode an emergency system known as a stick pusher, which sends the plane into a dive so it can avoid a stall and regain speed.

 

[CrownandCoke]

In response to speculation that Renslow was impaired by fatigue, Trenary told the committee the fatigue policy of both Pinnacle and Colgan airlines is clear. "If a pilot is fatigued for any reason, all they have to do is say so and they are excused from duty. The night of (Flight) 3407, we did have 11 reserve pilots available."

I worked for Pinnacle. I called in fatigued once due to a >16 hour duty day that scheduling forced on me the previous night followed by min rest. I had to fill out a form, talk to the chief pilot, and was threatened numerous times. You cannot call in fatigued without consequences at that company.

Burn that *ker to the ground.

 

[papanovember]

Colgan had the oportunity to verify Renslow's background. Colgan and Pinnacle are such poor places to work that they looked the other way to get some warm body to fill the seat.

I just emailed the members of the aviation sub committee a long letter detailing all the BS they heard yesterday.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Of course PT is going to latch on to the check ride busts - it's the only thing he can claim he has no control over.

 

[Whine Lover]

" I worked for Pinnacle. I called in fatigued once due to a >16 hour duty day that scheduling forced on me the previous night followed by min rest. I had to fill out a form, talk to the chief pilot, and was threatened numerous times. You cannot call in fatigued without consequences at that company."



Maybe you would care to share the above information with a group of folks who might actually make a difference?

NTSB, FAA, Media, Congress just to name a few....


YKMKR

 

[papanovember]

"Let me stress one thing, Capt. Renslow was a fine man by all accounts," Trenary said. But he added, "Had we known what we know now, no, he would not have been in that seat."
In response to speculation that Renslow was impaired by fatigue, Trenary told the committee the fatigue policy of both Pinnacle and Colgan airlines is clear. "If a pilot is fatigued for any reason, all they have to do is say so and they are excused from duty. The night of (Flight) 3407, we did have 11 reserve pilots available."

http://commerce.senate.gov/public/i...aring_id=9287f7f2-f8d6-476f-87ab-bdaf2f7f6e35

He also said they had 12 pilots in the ready room. Anyone know what that means? Do they actually have 12 people assigned to ready reserve at the same time?

 

[Dr King]

http://commerce.senate.gov/public/i...aring_id=9287f7f2-f8d6-476f-87ab-bdaf2f7f6e35

He also said they had 12 pilots in the ready room. Anyone know what that means? Do they actually have 12 people assigned to ready reserve at the same time?

Learn how to read. It says 12 people on reserve, not ready reserve. And yes, they usually have 10-15 pilots on reserve a day.

 

[papanovember]

I know how to read you don't know how to listen. Watch the testimony. He said there were 11 people on reserve on 12 ready to go in the ready room. Go to 20 : 00 in the link above.