Pinnacle's new ASA

[XJohXJ]

Not picking a fight, just restating the fact that XJ has been completely gutted over the last year, folks have lost their jobs, and are hurting. The base we lost was CVG about a year ago. We used to have 4 bases, not 3.

 

[ataopsdave]

Not picking a fight, just restating the fact that XJ has been completely gutted over the last year, folks have lost their jobs, and are hurting. The base we lost was CVG about a year ago. We used to have 4 bases, not 3.

Sorry about that...I forgot about CVG...I knew I was forgetting something

Thanks

 

[DoinTime]

The base we lost was CVG about a year ago. We used to have 4 bases, not 3.

CVG was a domicile not a base or hub. RHI and CWA were also XJ domiciles in the recent past. Express I & II used to have outstation baseing and we had over 25 of them at one time. Guess what??? All but three of them are now closed.

 

[XJohXJ]

Merry Christmas.


Good luck, guys.

 

[xjgearbtch]

From what I've heard on the line the guys over in MSP on the CRJ have aquired an outside attorney to represent them. 4 for 8 would put most of them in the left seat. Two years and they would have PIC and be out of this miserable regional mess. I don't blame them.

Split hairs all you want. We shrunk and 9E grew flies many of our routes, took over outstations, etc. Tell me this wasn't whipshaw. The LOA states nothing about flights hours/domicle. Section G. Reciprocal Agreement. It's a "net loss of pilot positions and a net gain of pilot positions." Read the actual LOA.

What ever, there will never be help from 9E. I'll quit ranting you got yours and lending a helping hand in the past doesn't mean squat. You all make great NWA employees.

 

[PCL_128]

From what I've heard on the line the guys over in MSP on the CRJ have aquired an outside attorney to represent them. 4 for 8 would put most of them in the left seat. Two years and they would have PIC and be out of this miserable regional mess. I don't blame them.

You seem to have a misunderstanding about how the seniority integration works under LOA 21. Captains transferring to XJ did receive seniority integration depending on the airframe they were transferring from, but FOs were stapled to the XJ list. There was no 1-for-2 integration for FOs, so your belief that XJ FOs would be able to come in as Captains would not be accurate.

Split hairs all you want. We shrunk and 9E grew flies many of our routes, took over outstations, etc. Tell me this wasn't whipshaw. What ever, there will never be help from 9E. I'll quit ranting you got yours and lending a helping hand in the past doesn't mean squat. You all make great NWA employees.

Of course this was a massive whipsaw, but that doesn't invoke the reciprocity of LOA 21. Again, LOA 21 refers to a pretty specific set of circumstances.

 

[xjgearbtch]

Every single FO on the CRJ was a captain before being downgraded.

 

[Crizz]

Every single FO on the CRJ was a captain before being downgraded.

The boys at peanuckle are so far removed from hardship its impossible for them to comprehend what it means to be downgraded or furloughed. And for some reason they think their fortune is due to their own merit.

Dude

 

[Crizz]

Every single FO on the CRJ was a captain before being downgraded.

Not to mention they have captains with less senority than half the XJ furloughs.

 

[xjgearbtch]

This is exactly NWA management wants. Us to split hairs, divide and conquer. 9E pilots are playing the game exactly how management wants to. That LOA was a great way to help reduce the whipshaw sting. Instead the I got mine attutude prevails in true legacy fashion.

I guarentee that if mesaba were to receive an order of 100 plus jets and we took those 15 CRJ's for peanuckle. They would be beating down the doors to get that LOA enforced. Its all about senority and sitting left seat. If they were in our shoes they would be callin the foul to.

Do you honestly believe NWA will let you get an agreement in time to attain the new ASA. It's a carrot and all they have to do is yank the stick and no more carrot. You all will see, NWA doesn't care about 9E, just their money.

 

[DoinTime]

Some CRJ guys at xj r hoping that our 2 jets go to 9E. Then they could transfer per the LOA. Every FO on the 602 would be a captain at 9E if they transferred with only half their senority.

As you probably should already know LOA 21 does not provide for any seniority for an incoming first officer. They are stapled onto the list based on the date the aircraft transactions took place. Captains that are qualified in the assuming positions take 1/2 of their longevity and captains that are not qualified take 1/3 of their longevity.

The applicability of LOA 21 would have to be discused as the language on the triggers is vague.

 

[n32jk]

oh never mind..... just noticed that someone else has described the LOA correctly. But if you want,,,, come on down in time to strike with us.

 

[n32jk]

The boys at peanuckle are so far removed from hardship its impossible for them to comprehend what it means to be downgraded or furloughed. And for some reason they think their fortune is due to their own merit.

Dude

For the lower thousand on the list maybe,,, but believe me the top 200 have been in the trenches for decades.

 

[sinkrate]

If you ever intend to stop the whipsaw sooner or later you are going to have to merge the 9E/XJ lists. Then mgt would gain nothing from moving the flying from one carrier to another. 21-G might be a good place to start. With all of the attrition at 9E they can easily absorb the pilots from XJ that want to go, without any significant disruptions to the upgrades at 9E.

If you think the NW pilot group is interested in a 'common carrier' petition you are sadly mistaken. The 9E MEC broached this in the mid 90's. The NW pilot group considered it an attack on their seniority list/rights and reacted almost violently. The 9E MEC was recalled. Whoever brings this up again will get excommunicated then burnt at the stake. Once you have demonstrated you are willing to make the sacrfices necessary to merge lists they might listen. Until that point it will be the same run in circles scream and shout.

 

[Dumb Pilot]

A lot of noise in front of the "Inflatable Rat" from all the red tails, but when it comes to helping each other out it is every man woman and child for themselves.
We are going to get exactly what we deserve. Delta

 

[cl-65link]

For the lower thousand on the list maybe,,, but believe me the top 200 have been in the trenches for decades.

Yep, almost 11 years for moi.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

The boys at peanuckle are so far removed from hardship its impossible for them to comprehend what it means to be downgraded or furloughed. And for some reason they think their fortune is due to their own merit.

Dude

Some of them do know hardship and they've brought that perspective to the pilot group....

 

[n32jk]

Pinnacle pilots get paid crap to begin with, so why the hell are they accepting less for growth potential....they've already snuffed the growth from Mesaba and now they're bending over again to go for the jugular.

Race to the bottom..

You really don't know what you're talking about. When 9E signed their present agreement it was middle of the road. You probably weren't shaving yet. 9E had nothing to do with XJ's plight. That was all between Foley and NW.

 

[Crizz]

Some of them do know hardship and they've brought that perspective to the pilot group....

Well thats encouraging. It seems every time I am graced with the presence of Mr Flagship I cant barely fight the urge to bust the smacktard strait in the face. I still think you've got a long way to go to educate the mainstream Dude.

 

[Fly4hire]

ding ding ding. Talking to a buddy of mine at ASA, he said this is the rumor circulating right now...

FYI - the press releases re: 9E being allowed to fly for other carriers are not complete. I spoke to one of the negotiating folks at the NWA MEC, and this provision is only for acft that PCL purchaces themselves. Nothing owned by NWA (ALL the CRJ's) can fly for anyone other than NWA feed. If Trenary wants to buy his own acft and fly them for DAL code, he's welcome, provided they don't fly through any NWA hubs.

In the current form the only way 9E is going to feed for DAL is if there is a NWA/DAL merger.......

 

[BlackPilot628]

Pinnacle pilots get paid crap to begin with, so why the hell are they accepting less for growth potential..

Ain't that the truth. Is that their current pay On Airline Pilot Central or after they took the pay cut?

 

[Smarta$$]

Ain't that the truth. Is that their current pay On Airline Pilot Central or after they took the pay cut?

There is NO pay cut. We took no pay cut. There will be no pay cut. There will be a pay raise for damn sure. Anybody that says we are taking a pay cut does not know his head from his G-OJET PILOT

 

[WildBlue]

I am not surprised at the high level of ignorance I find on this board, but some of the stuff on this thread is ridiculous.

First, Pinnacle pilots have NOT taken a pay cut for growth. We have been fighting for a new contract for two years. Unfortunately, the lack of contractual increases is making our compensation lower and lower as each month goes by. Witness ASA's numbers. Once they were one of the highest pay rates. Now, after four years of negotiations, they have one of the lowest. Anyone who says that Pinnacle pilots have taken any kind of cut for growth is dangerously ignorant.

Second, the LOA between Pinnacle and Mesaba covered a situation that was nearly catastrophic for the Pinnacle pilots of 1997. That catastrophy was a DIRECT result of a massive shift of flying from one group to the other. Since that LOA was signed flying performed by Mesaba props shifted slowly to Pinnacle as did a rather healthy component of DC9 NWA flying. Mesaba AVROs would share routes with Pinnacle CRJs. Also, do not fail to recall that only a few years ago an entire class and hub of flying was, again, transferred to Mesaba when Pinnacle lost its Saab Memphis flying.

With the transfer of ONE aircraft from Mesaba to Pinnacle in the form of a lone CRJ, you can make the case for activation of the reciprocity clause, but it would be a weak, weak case.

Why don't you, instead, open a discussion.....repeat, discussion....on other ways to do the same thing. (By the way, calling for a combined seniority list ignores the reality that both managements would have to agree) Pinnacle pilots should consider a contract provision that would have any ALPA pilot hired at Pinnacle starting at second year pay. There are other examples. Simply blowing hot air about LOA 21 gets you nothing.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Well thats encouraging. It seems every time I am graced with the presence of Mr Flagship I cant barely fight the urge to bust the smacktard strait in the face. I still think you've got a long way to go to educate the mainstream Dude.

I don't think that is limited to PCL, rather many regional airlines.

And with that said, the NTSB will put out their final report on the Pinnacle accident. The pinnacle pilots have learned alot since then and professionalism has taken a firm hold of the pilot group. They learned alot and are determined to be pilot leaders....

I think they will accept responsability, but judge them how they behave in light of and not in spite of...


Merry Christmas....

 

[Crizz]

I don't think that is limited to PCL, rather many regional airlines.

And with that said, the NTSB will put out their final report on the Pinnacle accident. The pinnacle pilots have learned alot since then and professionalism has taken a firm hold of the pilot group. They learned alot and are determined to be pilot leaders....

I think they will accept responsability, but judge them how they behave in light of and not in spite of...


Merry Christmas....

Good post. I hope you're right.

Merry Christmas

 

[EL10]

The term is similar “Transaction”. The transaction would be moving of one airframe from one operator to another. You want to argue the semantics, it is an entire fleet that is being transferred over. Not one place in 21-G does it state amounts, hours, or bases. By some of the comments on here people would stand by the fact that because it is not a Saab – A model that had the prop sync deferred, it’s not the same thing. Those are same people that have missed the sprit of the LOA. We are talking about 3 or 4 captains, which would qualify under the previous history of the application. First Officers are needed at 9E anyway. While I respect each MEC for defending the rights of its own pilots, let’s not miss opportunities to strength the entire industry one small step at a time. Also will someone explain to me why you are saying it is TWO airplanes, XJ only has ONE N602XJ.

 

[XJohXJ]

Used to be two. NWA took one back to park on the ramp and ignore.

 

[i fly boxes]

Some of the 900's are coming to 9E Thats all I am going to say

 

[PCL_128]

Some of the 900's are coming to 9E Thats all I am going to say

I hear that's what Terry has been going around telling people. I'll just say this: management only tells Terry what they want Terry to spread around. He is rarely an accurate source of information.

 

[spg2bmd]

terry

He is also not the chief pilot anymore.