Pinnacle's Aggressive Pilot Recruitment Program

[mcjohn]

Do Pinnacle pilots fly the 900 for the same rates as the 200?

Well?

 

[ataopsdave]

The rates have not been established yet for the 900...they are currently being negotiated

 

[Tarzan]

A carrier that operates any of the 70-76 seat jets not being operated as of November 1, 2004 may do so only if that carrier and the Company have agreed to terms for a preferential hiring precess for pilots furloughed by the Company.....the Company will offer preferential interviewsfor employment to airmen employed by a Delta Connection Carrier that offers preferential hiring to furloughed pilots.....

Hmmmmm....

Guess that is all of them now.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Thank you for your post - this is not aimed at you....

From the Delta PWA, section 1 B 40 e:

A carrier that operates any of the 70-76 seat jets not being operated as of November 1, 2004 may do so only if that carrier and the Company have agreed to terms for a preferential hiring precess for pilots furloughed by the Company.....the Company will offer preferential interviewsfor employment to airmen employed by a Delta Connection Carrier that offers preferential hiring to furloughed pilots.....

Ok, let me get this straight. ALPA (under direction of the Delta MEC) absolutely refused to allow the ASA and Comair pilots to participate in scope negotiations within the brand when all three were owned by Delta and were in section 6 negotiations - BUT - negotiated preferential hiring and seniority off of other pilot groups' seniority lists?

Anybody see a little representational problem from the perspective of Comair pilots?

After all, scope directly controls the wages and working conditions which are the core representational issues in collective bargaining, followed by seniority. ALPA negotiated side letters allowing Delta pilots to hold concurrent seniority at wholly owned DCI carriers (Second Officer SLOA) and preferential hiring of non-ALPA members while at the very same time blocking all attempts for ASA and Comair pilots to establish scope which would prevent the flying they performed from being outsourced to (who would have thought) non ALPA pilots at pilots in the service of NorthWest airlines.

ALPA is not only responsible for what has happened at ASA and Comair, they engineered and crafted the displacement and transfer of aircraft.

So which is it? Are MEC units to independent that ALPA can't allow negotiations within holding companies and the same brand, OR, can MEC's cross the line and negotiate preferential hiring schemes and abrogate seniority (referring to the Second Officer SLOA allowing concurrent seniority at wholly owned DCI carriers)?

 

[michael707767]

Ok, let me get this straight. ALPA (under direction of the Delta MEC) absolutely refused to allow the ASA and Comair pilots to participate in scope negotiations when all three were owned by Delta and were in section 6 negotiations - BUT - negotiated preferential hiring for pilots (the majority of which were going to be non ALPA members, from non-owned companies) from other seniority lists?

How could the Delta MEC and ALPA get this any more wrong? Was the reason for this contract provision to damage the careers of pilots at ASA and Comair?

Any company that agrees to fly CRJ900s under the Delta code also has to agree to give preferential hiring to furloughed Delta pilots. And in return, they get preferential hiring at Delta. This applies to CMR and ASA if they get a contract to fly 900s. So tell me how this will damage the career of an ASA or CMR pilot?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Any company that agrees to fly CRJ900s under the Delta code also has to agree to give preferential hiring to furloughed Delta pilots. And in return, they get preferential hiring at Delta. This applies to CMR and ASA if they get a contract to fly 900s. So tell me how this will damage the career of an ASA or CMR pilot?

1. ALPA blocked ASA and Comair from the merger requested at the 2000 BOD.
2. ALPA blocked ASA and Comair from negotiating scope with the owner of their acquired airlines
3. ALPA worked in partnership with management to enable the further outsourcing of Delta Codeshare to "any company" after Comair's MEC tried to establish a quid pro quo for scope in exchange for negotiating special concurrent seniority rights for Delta pilots.

ALPA controls our negotiations from national. While Duane Woerth fiddled, ASA's & Comair's jets were transferred to non union and ALPA carriers which had below industry standard contracts. Now as ALPA holds its line in the sand (with no scope protection) ASA's very existence is in question.

When Duane Woerth came to speak to us, the mantra of his speech was "full pay to the last day." His message was to stand strong and take a hit for our profession if we must. And that would be fine if ALPA had fought to limit the outsourcing of our flying - but - most of us consider the loss of our jobs, longevity and seniority as "career damage."

Even when ALPA gets caught with a smoking gun you guys roll out the "self defense" arguement that the fuel costs and effects of 9/11 made it necessary. So what's the point? You guys just don't get the concept that a union's job is to bring employees together to negotiate collectively.

Unfortunately this not only stinks for ASA and Comair pilots, it stinks for the Delta pilots too who's flying will be outsourced 3 to 1 with, ahem, old 757's. With 49% of "Delta" block hours now being performed by an ever DCI portfolio, who do you think you are going to have to be competitive with on a 100 seat jet, if you ever get one back on the property?

The direct result of killing the PID was the furlough of Delta pilots. The direct result of killing "brand scope" was that outsourcing of DCI went from 18%, to 20%, then 25% and now 49% of Delta's block hours.

With the way the Delta pilots negotiate scope, there may never be a 100 to 130 seat jet on the property. It is natural to look forward to your bigger airplane and career advancement, but down here at the bottom, where Delta's DC-9's and 737's used to fly, it is a real mess.

This is not a slam at the Delta pilots. However, their representatives need to try to turn this around and the first step is to realize that everyone is in this together. If you sell out the DC-9 flying, then the 737 flying goes next, after the 737 flying goes the MD and then what, all narrowbody, all domestic? Remember when we were told we would not recognize Delta flying post bankruptcy? Well, like frogs in boiling pots we have sat here and watched DCI go to 49% and I don't recognize much that is left of the airline I fly for.

A preferential hiring scheme is just a way to enable airlines to pay less now in exchange for promises they might not keep in the future. It not only harms ASA and Comair, it harms Pinnacle pilots who "invest" for a promise of a future job at Delta and ultimately harms Delta pilots too.

 

[michael707767]

A preferential hiring scheme is just a way to enable airlines to pay less now in exchange for promises they might not keep in the future. It not only harms ASA and Comair, it harms Pinnacle pilots who "invest" for a promise of a future job at Delta and ultimately harms Delta pilots too.

First of all, the contract calls for preferential interviews for the DCI pilots, not preferential hiring. So based on that, its your problem if you accept lower pay because of an interview which may or many not lead to a job. I would not accept less pay because of a promise of preferential interview/hiring, nor should you. Look at it this way, the preferential interview may lead to someone getting a job at Delta. But even if it doesn't I don't see how you are harmed.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Michael: Any time a union facilitates the outsourcing of jobs, workers are harmed.

 

[PuffDriver]

1. ALPA blocked ASA and Comair from the merger requested at the 2000 BOD.
2. ALPA blocked ASA and Comair from negotiating scope with the owner of their acquired airlines
3. ALPA worked in partnership with management to enable the further outsourcing of Delta Codeshare to "any company" after Comair's MEC tried to establish a quid pro quo for scope in exchange for negotiating special concurrent seniority rights for Delta pilots.

ALPA controls our negotiations from national. While Duane Woerth fiddled, ASA's & Comair's jets were transferred to non union and ALPA carriers which had below industry standard contracts. Now as ALPA holds its line in the sand (with no scope protection) ASA's very existence is in question.

When Duane Woerth came to speak to us, the mantra of his speech was "full pay to the last day." His message was to stand strong and take a hit for our profession if we must. And that would be fine if ALPA had fought to limit the outsourcing of our flying - but - most of us consider the loss of our jobs, longevity and seniority as "career damage."

Even when ALPA gets caught with a smoking gun you guys roll out the "self defense" arguement that the fuel costs and effects of 9/11 made it necessary. So what's the point? You guys just don't get the concept that a union's job is to bring employees together to negotiate collectively.

Unfortunately this not only stinks for ASA and Comair pilots, it stinks for the Delta pilots too who's flying will be outsourced 3 to 1 with, ahem, old 757's. With 49% of "Delta" block hours now being performed by an ever DCI portfolio, who do you think you are going to have to be competitive with on a 100 seat jet, if you ever get one back on the property?

The direct result of killing the PID was the furlough of Delta pilots. The direct result of killing "brand scope" was that outsourcing of DCI went from 18%, to 20%, then 25% and now 49% of Delta's block hours.

With the way the Delta pilots negotiate scope, there may never be a 100 to 130 seat jet on the property. It is natural to look forward to your bigger airplane and career advancement, but down here at the bottom, where Delta's DC-9's and 737's used to fly, it is a real mess.

This is not a slam at the Delta pilots. However, their representatives need to try to turn this around and the first step is to realize that everyone is in this together. If you sell out the DC-9 flying, then the 737 flying goes next, after the 737 flying goes the MD and then what, all narrowbody, all domestic? Remember when we were told we would not recognize Delta flying post bankruptcy? Well, like frogs in boiling pots we have sat here and watched DCI go to 49% and I don't recognize much that is left of the airline I fly for.

A preferential hiring scheme is just a way to enable airlines to pay less now in exchange for promises they might not keep in the future. It not only harms ASA and Comair, it harms Pinnacle pilots who "invest" for a promise of a future job at Delta and ultimately harms Delta pilots too.

You need to get over yourself. You lost. I am quite happy with all of the reps at Delta. You assume the PID was going to be a success. For every RJDC guy that assumes that, there were 4 Delta guys who knew that it would fail and that the Company would never accept one list. End of story.

ALPA national does nt control the nrgotiations at Delta. The Delta MEC does. Maybe it works that way at ASA and Comair. That is a YP, not an MP.

You seem very active in the Delta hiring threads; like maybe you want to come over here. I find that fascinating. Pretty much everything that you post is wrong. The exception would be the portfolio of connection carriers. I personally like this. It provides an outlet for Delta to keep competition for its feeder service fair. Too long have the regionals been profitable via lucrative contracts because they have a stanglehold on Delta connection flying. This levels the field a bit, and allows Delta to keep each in check with an underlying threat that another could just as easily step in and take its place.

I too wish that all Delta flying could be done by Delta pilots, but the risk to the company would be just too great. Also, some of the flying that is done now could not legally happen at all because of foreign rules and regulation.

I am the union pilot you profess to to be, and unlike you I know that we live in the real world where utpoia does not exist. You guys screwed up, period. You went all in on PIDs and lawsuits instead of taking the fair way out. You could have developed a fair and industry leading flow-through, and said no thanks. You could now be flying to Paris for Delta during this exciting time of great--and more to come--international expansion. Alas, however, you wanted the upside but none of the downside. You will now pay for it as other airlines flow into Atlanta and CVG where you used to have your percieved-Delta-cannot-live-without-Comair-and-ASA-pilots niche.

-One list was never going to be allowed by the company, and any conclusion based on the assumed success of it is just faulty logic and academic AKA the REAL world
-A flow-through would have been a win-win situation for all, and approved by the company
-No global airline can possibly assume the risk of having all of their flying done by their airplanes and their personnel


Deal with it, and get over it

 

[michael707767]

Michael: Any time a union facilitates the outsourcing of jobs, workers are harmed.

On that point, I agree. I think the Delta pilots, as a group, are a bunch of pussies. Pussies who will vote away even more jobs the next time around. Of course our current MEC leadership are the ones who are leading the charge to vote away our jobs, but thats a whole other story.

Having said that, once the jobs have been outsourced, I really don't care who gets them.

However, if one consequence of getting a contract to fly the 900s is that the pilots at that airline get a slightly better shot at a job with Delta then I see that as a good thing.