Pinnacle's Aggressive Pilot Recruitment Program

[mcjohn]

Do Pinnacle pilots fly the 900 for the same rates as the 200?

Well?

 

[ataopsdave]

The rates have not been established yet for the 900...they are currently being negotiated

 

[Tarzan]

A carrier that operates any of the 70-76 seat jets not being operated as of November 1, 2004 may do so only if that carrier and the Company have agreed to terms for a preferential hiring precess for pilots furloughed by the Company.....the Company will offer preferential interviewsfor employment to airmen employed by a Delta Connection Carrier that offers preferential hiring to furloughed pilots.....

Hmmmmm....

Guess that is all of them now.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Thank you for your post - this is not aimed at you....

From the Delta PWA, section 1 B 40 e:

A carrier that operates any of the 70-76 seat jets not being operated as of November 1, 2004 may do so only if that carrier and the Company have agreed to terms for a preferential hiring precess for pilots furloughed by the Company.....the Company will offer preferential interviewsfor employment to airmen employed by a Delta Connection Carrier that offers preferential hiring to furloughed pilots.....

Ok, let me get this straight. ALPA (under direction of the Delta MEC) absolutely refused to allow the ASA and Comair pilots to participate in scope negotiations within the brand when all three were owned by Delta and were in section 6 negotiations - BUT - negotiated preferential hiring and seniority off of other pilot groups' seniority lists?

Anybody see a little representational problem from the perspective of Comair pilots?

After all, scope directly controls the wages and working conditions which are the core representational issues in collective bargaining, followed by seniority. ALPA negotiated side letters allowing Delta pilots to hold concurrent seniority at wholly owned DCI carriers (Second Officer SLOA) and preferential hiring of non-ALPA members while at the very same time blocking all attempts for ASA and Comair pilots to establish scope which would prevent the flying they performed from being outsourced to (who would have thought) non ALPA pilots at pilots in the service of NorthWest airlines.

ALPA is not only responsible for what has happened at ASA and Comair, they engineered and crafted the displacement and transfer of aircraft.

So which is it? Are MEC units to independent that ALPA can't allow negotiations within holding companies and the same brand, OR, can MEC's cross the line and negotiate preferential hiring schemes and abrogate seniority (referring to the Second Officer SLOA allowing concurrent seniority at wholly owned DCI carriers)?

 

[michael707767]

Ok, let me get this straight. ALPA (under direction of the Delta MEC) absolutely refused to allow the ASA and Comair pilots to participate in scope negotiations when all three were owned by Delta and were in section 6 negotiations - BUT - negotiated preferential hiring for pilots (the majority of which were going to be non ALPA members, from non-owned companies) from other seniority lists?

How could the Delta MEC and ALPA get this any more wrong? Was the reason for this contract provision to damage the careers of pilots at ASA and Comair?

Any company that agrees to fly CRJ900s under the Delta code also has to agree to give preferential hiring to furloughed Delta pilots. And in return, they get preferential hiring at Delta. This applies to CMR and ASA if they get a contract to fly 900s. So tell me how this will damage the career of an ASA or CMR pilot?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Any company that agrees to fly CRJ900s under the Delta code also has to agree to give preferential hiring to furloughed Delta pilots. And in return, they get preferential hiring at Delta. This applies to CMR and ASA if they get a contract to fly 900s. So tell me how this will damage the career of an ASA or CMR pilot?

1. ALPA blocked ASA and Comair from the merger requested at the 2000 BOD.
2. ALPA blocked ASA and Comair from negotiating scope with the owner of their acquired airlines
3. ALPA worked in partnership with management to enable the further outsourcing of Delta Codeshare to "any company" after Comair's MEC tried to establish a quid pro quo for scope in exchange for negotiating special concurrent seniority rights for Delta pilots.

ALPA controls our negotiations from national. While Duane Woerth fiddled, ASA's & Comair's jets were transferred to non union and ALPA carriers which had below industry standard contracts. Now as ALPA holds its line in the sand (with no scope protection) ASA's very existence is in question.

When Duane Woerth came to speak to us, the mantra of his speech was "full pay to the last day." His message was to stand strong and take a hit for our profession if we must. And that would be fine if ALPA had fought to limit the outsourcing of our flying - but - most of us consider the loss of our jobs, longevity and seniority as "career damage."

Even when ALPA gets caught with a smoking gun you guys roll out the "self defense" arguement that the fuel costs and effects of 9/11 made it necessary. So what's the point? You guys just don't get the concept that a union's job is to bring employees together to negotiate collectively.

Unfortunately this not only stinks for ASA and Comair pilots, it stinks for the Delta pilots too who's flying will be outsourced 3 to 1 with, ahem, old 757's. With 49% of "Delta" block hours now being performed by an ever DCI portfolio, who do you think you are going to have to be competitive with on a 100 seat jet, if you ever get one back on the property?

The direct result of killing the PID was the furlough of Delta pilots. The direct result of killing "brand scope" was that outsourcing of DCI went from 18%, to 20%, then 25% and now 49% of Delta's block hours.

With the way the Delta pilots negotiate scope, there may never be a 100 to 130 seat jet on the property. It is natural to look forward to your bigger airplane and career advancement, but down here at the bottom, where Delta's DC-9's and 737's used to fly, it is a real mess.

This is not a slam at the Delta pilots. However, their representatives need to try to turn this around and the first step is to realize that everyone is in this together. If you sell out the DC-9 flying, then the 737 flying goes next, after the 737 flying goes the MD and then what, all narrowbody, all domestic? Remember when we were told we would not recognize Delta flying post bankruptcy? Well, like frogs in boiling pots we have sat here and watched DCI go to 49% and I don't recognize much that is left of the airline I fly for.

A preferential hiring scheme is just a way to enable airlines to pay less now in exchange for promises they might not keep in the future. It not only harms ASA and Comair, it harms Pinnacle pilots who "invest" for a promise of a future job at Delta and ultimately harms Delta pilots too.

 

[michael707767]

A preferential hiring scheme is just a way to enable airlines to pay less now in exchange for promises they might not keep in the future. It not only harms ASA and Comair, it harms Pinnacle pilots who "invest" for a promise of a future job at Delta and ultimately harms Delta pilots too.

First of all, the contract calls for preferential interviews for the DCI pilots, not preferential hiring. So based on that, its your problem if you accept lower pay because of an interview which may or many not lead to a job. I would not accept less pay because of a promise of preferential interview/hiring, nor should you. Look at it this way, the preferential interview may lead to someone getting a job at Delta. But even if it doesn't I don't see how you are harmed.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Michael: Any time a union facilitates the outsourcing of jobs, workers are harmed.

 

[PuffDriver]

1. ALPA blocked ASA and Comair from the merger requested at the 2000 BOD.
2. ALPA blocked ASA and Comair from negotiating scope with the owner of their acquired airlines
3. ALPA worked in partnership with management to enable the further outsourcing of Delta Codeshare to "any company" after Comair's MEC tried to establish a quid pro quo for scope in exchange for negotiating special concurrent seniority rights for Delta pilots.

ALPA controls our negotiations from national. While Duane Woerth fiddled, ASA's & Comair's jets were transferred to non union and ALPA carriers which had below industry standard contracts. Now as ALPA holds its line in the sand (with no scope protection) ASA's very existence is in question.

When Duane Woerth came to speak to us, the mantra of his speech was "full pay to the last day." His message was to stand strong and take a hit for our profession if we must. And that would be fine if ALPA had fought to limit the outsourcing of our flying - but - most of us consider the loss of our jobs, longevity and seniority as "career damage."

Even when ALPA gets caught with a smoking gun you guys roll out the "self defense" arguement that the fuel costs and effects of 9/11 made it necessary. So what's the point? You guys just don't get the concept that a union's job is to bring employees together to negotiate collectively.

Unfortunately this not only stinks for ASA and Comair pilots, it stinks for the Delta pilots too who's flying will be outsourced 3 to 1 with, ahem, old 757's. With 49% of "Delta" block hours now being performed by an ever DCI portfolio, who do you think you are going to have to be competitive with on a 100 seat jet, if you ever get one back on the property?

The direct result of killing the PID was the furlough of Delta pilots. The direct result of killing "brand scope" was that outsourcing of DCI went from 18%, to 20%, then 25% and now 49% of Delta's block hours.

With the way the Delta pilots negotiate scope, there may never be a 100 to 130 seat jet on the property. It is natural to look forward to your bigger airplane and career advancement, but down here at the bottom, where Delta's DC-9's and 737's used to fly, it is a real mess.

This is not a slam at the Delta pilots. However, their representatives need to try to turn this around and the first step is to realize that everyone is in this together. If you sell out the DC-9 flying, then the 737 flying goes next, after the 737 flying goes the MD and then what, all narrowbody, all domestic? Remember when we were told we would not recognize Delta flying post bankruptcy? Well, like frogs in boiling pots we have sat here and watched DCI go to 49% and I don't recognize much that is left of the airline I fly for.

A preferential hiring scheme is just a way to enable airlines to pay less now in exchange for promises they might not keep in the future. It not only harms ASA and Comair, it harms Pinnacle pilots who "invest" for a promise of a future job at Delta and ultimately harms Delta pilots too.

You need to get over yourself. You lost. I am quite happy with all of the reps at Delta. You assume the PID was going to be a success. For every RJDC guy that assumes that, there were 4 Delta guys who knew that it would fail and that the Company would never accept one list. End of story.

ALPA national does nt control the nrgotiations at Delta. The Delta MEC does. Maybe it works that way at ASA and Comair. That is a YP, not an MP.

You seem very active in the Delta hiring threads; like maybe you want to come over here. I find that fascinating. Pretty much everything that you post is wrong. The exception would be the portfolio of connection carriers. I personally like this. It provides an outlet for Delta to keep competition for its feeder service fair. Too long have the regionals been profitable via lucrative contracts because they have a stanglehold on Delta connection flying. This levels the field a bit, and allows Delta to keep each in check with an underlying threat that another could just as easily step in and take its place.

I too wish that all Delta flying could be done by Delta pilots, but the risk to the company would be just too great. Also, some of the flying that is done now could not legally happen at all because of foreign rules and regulation.

I am the union pilot you profess to to be, and unlike you I know that we live in the real world where utpoia does not exist. You guys screwed up, period. You went all in on PIDs and lawsuits instead of taking the fair way out. You could have developed a fair and industry leading flow-through, and said no thanks. You could now be flying to Paris for Delta during this exciting time of great--and more to come--international expansion. Alas, however, you wanted the upside but none of the downside. You will now pay for it as other airlines flow into Atlanta and CVG where you used to have your percieved-Delta-cannot-live-without-Comair-and-ASA-pilots niche.

-One list was never going to be allowed by the company, and any conclusion based on the assumed success of it is just faulty logic and academic AKA the REAL world
-A flow-through would have been a win-win situation for all, and approved by the company
-No global airline can possibly assume the risk of having all of their flying done by their airplanes and their personnel


Deal with it, and get over it

 

[michael707767]

Michael: Any time a union facilitates the outsourcing of jobs, workers are harmed.

On that point, I agree. I think the Delta pilots, as a group, are a bunch of pussies. Pussies who will vote away even more jobs the next time around. Of course our current MEC leadership are the ones who are leading the charge to vote away our jobs, but thats a whole other story.

Having said that, once the jobs have been outsourced, I really don't care who gets them.

However, if one consequence of getting a contract to fly the 900s is that the pilots at that airline get a slightly better shot at a job with Delta then I see that as a good thing.

 

[~~~^~~~]

You need to get over yourself. You lost.

Agreed. Those fighting for an inclusive union that supports our profession lost. This is not about me, I am just an observer of what happens in our profession. Our profession is important, individually I'm nothing.

ALPA national does nt control the nrgotiations at Delta. The Delta MEC does. Maybe it works that way at ASA and Comair. That is a YP, not an MP.

ALPA's level of representation should be determined by the union's constitution, not the size airplane a pilot operates. This is the whole point of the representational struggle at the lower end of our profession.

You seem very active in the Delta hiring threads; like maybe you want to come over here. I find that fascinating. Pretty much everything that you post is wrong. The exception would be the portfolio of connection carriers. I personally like this. It provides an outlet for Delta to keep competition for its feeder service fair. Too long have the regionals been profitable via lucrative contracts because they have a stanglehold on Delta connection flying. This levels the field a bit, and allows Delta to keep each in check with an underlying threat that another could just as easily step in and take its place.

Delta negotiates the contracts and is in control of the operation. Delta decided to sell off ASA. I'm not sure how any of the mice have a stranglehold on the 900lb gorilla. You are going to have to explain that to me a little more.

Do you mean to say that job instability at the regionals helps offset higher mainline pay? If so, I disagree. If want reasoning, just ask, but it's inflammatory and I'm self editing the response.

I too wish that all Delta flying could be done by Delta pilots, but the risk to the company would be just too great. Also, some of the flying that is done now could not legally happen at all because of foreign rules and regulation.

What? Delta leases aircraft, buys the fuel, then subleases them to a company which does not have pilots, or operational experience and it would be too risky for Delta to just operate the airplanes themselves, what? An International destination that Delta code can go to on an RJ, but not on a DL aircraft, what? Again, please explain. I am completely confident in your ability to fly a CRJ900 and believe Delta could operate these airplane successfully. You don't have to bid it, you should have that choice.

I am the union pilot you profess to to be, and unlike you I know that we live in the real world where utpoia does not exist. You guys screwed up, period.... You could now be flying to Paris for Delta during this exciting time of great--and more to come--international expansion. Alas, however, you wanted the upside but none of the downside.

You will now pay for it as other airlines flow into Atlanta and CVG where you used to have your percieved-Delta-cannot-live-without-Comair-and-ASA-pilots niche.

So, this is retribution for asking ALPA to fairly employ its Constitution. Well, at least now we know and understand the logic behind ALPA's destructive actions.

So would you want us to get hired at Delta, or should we just leave the profession so your vindication is complete, or is that enough? What is enough?

-One list was never going to be allowed by the company

-A flow-through would have been a win-win situation for all, and approved by the company

What is the difference?

Deal with it, and get over it

We did lose. Our effort at directing ALPA towards a union based on inclusivity was vanquished by a union bent on exclusivity.

But what do you do after failure? Do you sit there, or do you pick yourself up and get back on task? I have been flying Delta passengers out of Atlanta for almost 10 years, should I give up just to satisfy some guy on a web board, or get on board with the Company I have already been serving and doing a good job at for years?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Having said that, once the jobs have been outsourced, I really don't care who gets them.

It is a matter of perspective. The pilots currently performing that flying who are being replaced do care.

The offer of "preferential interviews" just adds insult to injury.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Fins, your points are falling on deaf ears...... They don't see how this "portfolio whipsaw" is also hurting them. The downward pressure on the 100 seat and less market is putting downward pressure on EVERYONE, including them. What people like Puff don't realize is that they have more to lose than those of us who have gotten used to the "new" pay paradigm...

Ironically, Puff said that we lost..... in reality he lost much more and he doesn't even realize that it is a direct result of the actions of the mainline in regards to scope...

 

[N2264J]

I am the union pilot you profess to to be...Deal with it, and get over it

You obviously don't have a clue about what a union is supposed to be.

 

[michael707767]

It is a matter of perspective. The pilots currently performing that flying who are being replaced do care.

The thing is the flying that you are losing never belonged to you, contractually or otherwise. Does it suck, yes.

Here is how I see it, and it's just my humble opinion, but here goes. Your destiny, or rather your lack of control over your destiny, was sealed the day you went to work for an airline that is not really an airline. ASA is simply a contractor to Delta who provides a service for a price. No different from the companies that provide catering or fuel servicing. ASA does not fly its own code, ASA does not have its own marketing or ticketing. And ASA does not decide when or where it flies. Simply put, ASA is an airline in name only.

ALPA can do a lot of things. There are some things ALPA cannot do. And ALPA cannot change the fact that not only do you not control the flying you perform, the company you work for does not control the flying it performs.

 

[Inconceivable]

Folks, "Preferential Interview Agreements" and a nickel still leave you $5.00 short of a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

It means nothing--except that someone says "we considered it with preference before we circular-filed it."

Delta is not giving up control of who can wear the double-breasted straightjacket. Smiling pilots will be automatically DQed.

 

[PuffDriver]

>>

Agreed. Those fighting for an inclusive union that supports our profession lost. This is not about me, I am just an observer of what happens in our profession. Our profession is important, individually I'm nothing.>>


Kind of the point here, it is your viewpoint that your position was about inclusive scope, while it is the opinions of others that it would be at best a futile excercise in the laws of reality and bargaining position of labor vs management.

<<ALPA's level of representation should be determined by the union's constitution, not the size airplane a pilot operates. This is the whole point of the representational struggle at the lower end of our profession.>>

That's correct. What we had here was a body of a few hundred pilots trying to circumvent the constitution interpretation. A body of 9500 does not rule ALPA, and a body of a couple hundred certainly does not. Thems the rules, and a couple hundred pilots out to change the rules in a manner of self-interest doesn't fly.


<<Do you mean to say that job instability at the regionals helps offset higher mainline pay? If so, I disagree. If want reasoning, just ask, but it's inflammatory and I'm self editing the response.>>

No, I didn't say that at all. I said that two main feeders for the entire Delta East operation had the recipe for disaster. Additionally, when one company in particular, has a stranglehold on the world's largest hub, it puts Delta at the disadvantage of having to give up more in the contractual relationship with that feeder. This way, Delta can have some negotiating leverage with several feeders--thus lowering costs and providing more money to pay the employees, stockholders, and stakeholders of Delta.

<<What? Delta leases aircraft, buys the fuel, then subleases them to a company which does not have pilots, or operational experience and it would be too risky for Delta to just operate the airplanes themselves, what? An International destination that Delta code can go to on an RJ, but not on a DL aircraft, what? Again, please explain. I am completely confident in your ability to fly a CRJ900 and believe Delta could operate these airplane successfully. You don't have to bid it, you should have that choice.>>


You simply have no understanding of the reach of Delta's network. There is your explanation. When you can grasp that Delta cannot fill a 767 into LeWhatever, France, but would like to gain revenue from the 50 people who need to fly into LeWhatever, France--get back to me. Who can fly what has nothing to do with it. I ride around on ASA and Comair all of the time. I jumpseat regularly. It has nothing to do with the fact that the equipment and cost of delta owning and flying every possible Delta passenger is just to enormous of a gamble, and a waste of capital.


<<So, this is retribution for asking ALPA to fairly employ its Constitution. Well, at least now we know and understand the logic behind ALPA's destructive actions. >>

No, but politics are everywhere--including unions.

<<So would you want us to get hired at Delta, or should we just leave the profession so your vindication is complete, or is that enough? What is enough?>>

I would like to see, and I believe it is happening, a vast majority of our hiring from our affiliates. A sort of unofficial flow-through--as it should be. The problem is that your egos thought they could usurp a system where windfalls are the exception, and not subject to the hostage taking of a minority body. The interesting thing is that the contractual language in question is found verbatim in the contract of Comair, at least at the time. You just gotta laugh at the hypocrisy and irony.

<<What is the difference?
We did lose. Our effort at directing ALPA towards a union based on inclusivity was vanquished by a union bent on exclusivity. >>

Your right, what does ALPA know? What do I know. I have only been at 7 different airlines. What you cannot accept is that this was your opinion of how ALPA should be, and there are about 45,000 opinions of how ALPA should be. The vast majority of them disagreed, spoke to their representatives, and we are where we are..except that you are trying to sue now.

<<But what do you do after failure? Do you sit there, or do you pick yourself up and get back on task? I have been flying Delta passengers out of Atlanta for almost 10 years, should I give up just to satisfy some guy on a web board, or get on board with the Company I have already been serving and doing a good job at for years?

>>

I have been flying Delta passengers for longer. There are pilots here who have been flying them for twice as long, and even longer. Do you think that they just might have some perspective whhich might be different from yours and be just as <gasp> germane? Perish the thought


BTW, I edited this because it was very hard to follow. This computer thing doesn't work very well for me. I put the <<>> around quotes. My responses follow.

 

[PuffDriver]

It is a matter of perspective. The pilots currently performing that flying who are being replaced do care.

The offer of "preferential interviews" just adds insult to injury.

True, and that battle is up to you, within ALPA. I am still waiting for that PID with skywest. You know, the one you didn't file with Comair. If you had filed one with Comair, all of that flying would be both of yours now. All of the connection flying would be done by a single unified Comair ASA group. Blah, blah, blah.

 

[PuffDriver]

Fins, your points are falling on deaf ears...... They don't see how this "portfolio whipsaw" is also hurting them. The downward pressure on the 100 seat and less market is putting downward pressure on EVERYONE, including them. What people like Puff don't realize is that they have more to lose than those of us who have gotten used to the "new" pay paradigm...

Ironically, Puff said that we lost..... in reality he lost much more and he doesn't even realize that it is a direct result of the actions of the mainline in regards to scope...

My beliefs about scope are in the minority at Delta. I will continue to fight where the fight is appropriate..at my airline. Trying to fight an unwinnable battle of bringing Comair and ASA pilots into our ranks is a waste of time and money IMO, in the opinion of the Delta MEC, the opinion of Delta, and the opinion of ALPA national. Otherwise it would be a done deal.

You did lose. You had a much better chance to improve your lot in life than your predecessors. You had a chance at compromise.Your representatives chose to pass. Not only did they choose to pass, but they set up a showdown. In a showdown, someone wins and someone loses. You lost, and it will hurt ou in the long run that you did not take step, and instead went for the leap. You let your egos force you into a bad position. We will soon be looking at 10 year international captains at 170-180K a year, new-hire international first officers--that is short term. Long term is still undecided, but I will put my money where I am and not head over to Comair, Pinnacle, Chautaqua, or Skywest.

From what I understand, even your own pilots don't put much confidence in you either. You've lost that as well.

 

[PuffDriver]

You obviously don't have a clue about what a union is supposed to be.

Such substance. Many airlines, many managements, and many lessons have taught me about the union/union, union/management, and union/reality experience. Your little jab doesn't even scratch the surface. It's just a futile attempt at a 1-liner. Pretty pathetic.