Pinnacle upgrades

[Speedbird34]

Lear 70 with all due respect to your achievements as a pilot and with gratitude to you for taking time out to enlighten me. I would also want you to note that by making statements which are not !00% fact you could discourage a lot of good people from coming to work here.
Things may not always work out as planned but when did been optomistic become a pilot defect. I just feel people should show some respect to those who provide you work to feed your family. I am also 100% behind the union's effort for better work rules etc. But I do not do the negotiating.
As regards my expereince as a piot all I can say is I do not need to parade my type ratings on this site to tell you what level of training I have had. If you can offer me employment then maybe I will let you look at my resume.

 

[Lear70]

Lear 70 with all due respect to your achievements as a pilot and with gratitude to you for taking time out to enlighten me.

Sorry man, your post just rubbed me the wrong way after being treated like sh*t 90% of the time at this company the last several years... Probably did get a little worked up, my apologies for the vehemence of my reply.

I would also want you to note that by making statements which are not !00% fact you could discourage a lot of good people from coming to work here.

True, but NONE of us have 100% fact about hiring plans, and I'd rather someone didn't come here and stay somewhere they can pay the bills than make the jump and get stuck here as an F/O for many, many years when comments on this board made them expect a street CA slot - that kind of disappointment lingers with a person. H*ll, I'm one of the FEW who have always encouraged people to come here, while simultaneously warning them of the dangers of coming in, ESPECIALLY as a street captain. Do a history of all my posts regarding PCL, you'll see I'm mostly fair, balanced, and usually correct about hiring trends - I have my sources too.

Things may not always work out as planned but when did been optomistic become a pilot defect. I just feel people should show some respect to those who provide you work to feed your family.

You're absolutley right, optimism has a place and I'm very optimistic about the future of our company and the possibilities a new contract may afford. At the same time, I again emphasize the fact that I DID say to be respectful (read my post to you again, I think I used that exact word), and we should all do our job 100%, regardless of whether we like our employer or not, but gratitude is definitely the wrong emotion, except to God for giving us the skills and opportunity.

I am also 100% behind the union's effort for better work rules etc. But I do not do the negotiating.

True, but think on this: WE ALL DO THE RATIFICATION! We may not negotiate the contract, but we have member ratification and, by God, we need to use it wisely. If the contract isn't a true INDUSTRY as well as company improvement, it needs to be sent back. Period. WE DO HAVE THAT POWER AND THE PILOTS HERE NEED TO START THINKING LIKE IT!

As regards my expereince as a piot all I can say is I do not need to parade my type ratings on this site to tell you what level of training I have had. If you can offer me employment then maybe I will let you look at my resume.

Touche'. But since you DID list your experience, I chose to highlight it so that others could decide who best to listen to. Sometimes experience IS the best teacher, and I'm still learning - our Check Airmen are fantastic incidentally, and we have some VERY experienced guys and gals here that I still learn new stuff from on our company message board - it's a great way to discuss and learn!

You've got some good experience in that B99, and I'm certain you're an asset to any flight crew (I wish ALL our new-hires could be so experienced), and all of us are still learning, even the furloughed NW guys who are here at PCL and post on this board (if they had spoken up I probably wouldn't have posted at all - they're usually more eloquent and subtle about making points than I am - something I strive towards).

But the simple fact is that people do some of their job research on this board; sometimes it can be a great resource, sometimes it's a little slanted against reality. I just try to "keep it real", and the atmosphere on the line I think is tilted a little more in the direction I was going than the one you were. My opinion, for what it's worth.

Have a great week!

 

[dondk]

I am with Lear70 on being honest even if it hurts.. He has some good info and crunches the numbers like the rest of us. We have nothing to gain by being upfront and telling you what the opinions of the pilot group are versus the nonconnah kool aid. Although it really is fun to hear about some of the stuff the make up on nonconnah.

About 2 years ago we had a few of our guys on this very board telling people about fast upgrades (less than 8 months) when the truth was it was taking years. Some people bought the line of crap from nonconnah and this board. They came over and became disgruntled, took it out on fellow pilots and then eventually moved on all the more pi$$ed off at the world.

Bottom line.. we are still short pilots.. probably through the summer before we balance things out. How many more are we hiring? who knows, it depends on which staffing model they are using today! There will be 3-4 more CA vacancies, the question though is how many on the vacancy, I have heard at least 8 per vacancy.

Regardless of seat now, your looking on the CA side of no more than 10 days off and reserve. As an FO you may get off of reserve but doubtfully more than 11 or 12 days off.

Funny comment to this.. I called planning because I needed to drop 2 legs this upcoming weekend. I was told they were negative captains in DTW, they have been for the past week and they will not balance out until the 28th.
The planner was even bitchin to me how the staffing sucks and they cannot plan to save their lives.

 

[Rook]

Yeah Lear 70 is a good guy he just pretends to be an A** During G/S he was one of 3 street CA's in class. All former Boeing PIC's that for one reason or another (furlough/family)chose to come over to Express/pncl. He's usually dead on with company issues and doesn't sugar coat anything, so what he's saying is dead on. C'mon over as a street captain. Hope you enjoy reserve. RRRRRRNNNNG...hi got a junior man assignment/extension for ya will be heard on a regular basis. But if you got the time then you're qualified for the position end of story.

Rook

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

New vacancy just came out...

Only 1 slot respectively in DTW and MSP... 4 slots in MEM.


There are alot of improvements that need to be made in the next contract... and management needs to realize that not treating their pilot group like crap has its benefits. FO's should not be paid less than 30,000 a year first year... We fly legs commensurate to NW DC-9's and alot of airbus runs...while flying 100 hours a month and right against 30 in 7 and 1000 hours a year.

 

[Speedbird34]

Hi Lear,
Thanks for your very sincere response. I have heard nothing but good things about you from everyone here and elsewhere.
Your last post was right on the money. We all hope for a great future!
Hope you have a great week.

 

[Lear70]

Something to think about, and I know this is a bit of the pot calling the kettle black, but with the upgrades dying down, the senior CA's need to stop base hopping so that they can't reduce the number of vacancies by not awarding secondaries.

The contract reads that once a vacancy comes out, it cannot be reduced in numbers. Guys like me who have "played the system" for the last year and base hopped every other month for cash need to stop doing it and I have - I'm now in DTW for three months then MEM permanently (yeah, I know, but the lines work better for my commute).

This way, when a vacancy comes out, a CA doesn't "take it" and give the company the opportunity to decide they didn't need that many Captains and not award a "secondary" which would upgrade someone. Hasn't been a problem when we needed 10 new CA's a month, but it will play a big part now that the vacancies are dwindling.

Food for thought...

 

[DoinTime]

The contract reads that once a vacancy comes out, it cannot be reduced in numbers.

Any vacancy can be amended or canceled prior to the effective date. The reason the company posts a vacancy of one position is so they can amend that number if staffing levels dictate. If they don't put down at least one vacancy they cannot add that position.

 

[Looking]

What happened to the shortage of Captains at 9E?
What does this mean for those of us with upcomming interviews and
have been through this game but has been furloughed once or twice and was hoping for that 6 year Capt. reserve plan?

Is NJ a better option anyway now?
And off course we are looking for "guarantied" replies here. ;-)

I'm still looking.

 

[Lear70]

It's my understanding that the vacancy can be amended "larger" or yes, cancelled, prior to the effective date, but I'm pretty certain it can't be "reduced" in numbers. I don't have the contract right in front of me but I went through this with WG a while back and I'm pretty sure I have it right. Will look again today and post later.

Netjets instead of here? Think they'll get a contract anytime this decade? Fractional certainly was a lot of fun, but a lot of work too and upgrades aren't looking like they'll happen within 3 to 5 years there either... Better pay (barely) though as an F/O. Probably better days off too.

I still think that if you aren't sitting in class by late March you're going to be scraping the bottom of the barrel to make CA. That single vacancy thing is a fluke, we should see at least one, MAYBE two more with 15-20 on it before it thins out, but it won't be long now... My opinion of course, given how many CA's we have now, how many are scheduled for training, and how many we'll need given their current "staffing ratio" (which is built on block hours, not crews per aircraft, but we have speculated where the crew per aircraft number is based on past history).

 

[dondk]

I thought we had one vacancy where they decreased the amount on the vacancy. It was about 8 months ago...

I thought the reason they gave was something to do with staffing and I don't recall an grievance over it either. The contract does not state anything about reducing the vacancies, only that it can be ammended. I guess you can guess DW's position on that one.

I am with Lear70 on that we should see about 40-50 more CA vacancies then we should see them based on attrition only (about 7% per year).

The only comment I am going to add.. Last fall the union came out with the whole campaign of upgrade now or lose it like they are now. 2 months later we got the announcement of 10 more jets. Not much but at least another 40 CA's. The union is doing the same campaign and there are still 65 options that have been converted but not built yet.

My .02 and not guaranteed in anyway, shape or form

 

[P38JLightning]

how does this happen?

In regards to the issue of street captains, I have to ask how is it that that is happening at PCL in the first place? I will grant you that rapid growth causes lots of upgrades, but street hiring, a lot, direct to a jet?

How/why does a company get into this position in the first place? PCL may be working under an old contract, but I'm sure they, like everyone else, have thousands of resumes on HR's desks.

Do PCL upgrade mins have waivers? Like 3000TT unless you have 2000TT including 1000 with the company and in the equipment or something like that? Seems like that woul dbe better for the company also. That way you don't have a 2999 hour FO with 2500 hours in the plane babysitting a 3000 hour street captain with 500 hours turbo prop time, etc.

I think PCL likes their "bridge" programs or whatever, but they should be tempered with moderation. Comair hires (more likely is required by DAL to hire) 300 hour WMU interns (IOW Delta pre-hires) but those numbers are a small fraction of total pilots hired. Even with a large pipeline of DCAcademy grads in the 1000 hour range, we hire more than enough higher time pilots that we would never have to street hire jet captains no matter how fast we grew, ever. (besides thankfuly our contract prohibits it).

I just don't see what management gains from binging on GIA students or the like.

 

[dondk]

Mgmt gains guaranteed FO's for a defined period of time. Mesa has been doing it for years and it does work. Fixed cost for a fixed period of time, the bean counters can use that for numerous things.

A lower time FO also has no options to go anywhere else, so they are married to the company. Additionally iof the company want to put pressure on these FO's for contract reasons they can. Where will a 1100 hour FO go in this market? not back to a jet!

As for 1000's of resume's on a desk, I have heard they are having problems filling classes. Probably becasue we are no pay and the room and board is on the new hires dime. I am sure that weed's out 30-40% of the potential applicants if not more.

we have waivers, basically 3500 reducable to 3000 with up to 500 hours with time in type. There are other reducers for those employed with the company. Although it is still only 500 hours and it is towards ME and turbine time.

This is the second time in 4 years that they have gone to the street to find peep's for the left seat. It is not surprising for PNCL, this is a typical kneejerk reaction. We don't plan, we react!

 

[redflyer65]

Heard on Friday that the "interview board" is headed back to Fort Lauderdale for another GIA round, not sure how many will be hired, but for now, the pipeline continues. When will the music stop. When it does, it will be quiet for a while.

 

[P38JLightning]

makes sense

dondk,

I guess I can see that. At Comair we have been getting burned by junior FO attrition the last year or two (one of the most expensive kinds of attrition)

Although you might start to see a similar anomoly when the rapid growth spurt stops at PCL in a few years (or sooner?) Some of our junior FO's left for Chautauqua so its possible to get another "jet job" with relatively low time. Eagle and SkyWest have very low mins too (not just published but competitive) but I guess that has less to do with the flight time of the people you hire than it does with the growth rate at other places relative to your own.

 

[dondk]

I have heard that each time they go to FLL it is for no less than 50, on average 80 these last few trips.

P38JLightning,

we had that FO attrition about 18 months ago.. Many guys hired in late '01/early '02 with the promise of upgrade within a year.. Did not happen and we had a decent exodus in '04 from all those tired of waiting. Ironically that is about the same time mgmt increased the GIA numbers from 50/50 per class to almost all GIA per class.

I have heard of a few of our GIA dudes seriously looking at COEX lately. Maybe when the growth stops in the near future we will see another exodus. I'd like to see more CA's getting hired though, a FO is not going to help me

 

[FO 4 Life]

I talked to KM last week about interviewing today. I was upfront with her and told that I had been hired as a captain at another airline and asked about turning new FOs into captains in class. She said that 9E was almost to the point of hiring captains off the street and not waiting until they got to class to upgrade them. She proceeded to say that a memo came down that day ending CA hiring so 9E could run pure FO classes for the next couple months and catch up staffing. She thought I would probably see an upgrade within 6-8 months. I'll take the bird in hand.

 

[English]

I'll take the bird in hand.

Great idea.

I've started doing that myself!

 

[dondk]

A new vacancy came out.
6 CA 4 MEM 1 DTW 1 MSP
64 FO 8 MEM 27 DTW 29 MSP


The largest FO vacancy yet.

 

[DoinTime]

....She thought I would probably see an upgrade within 6-8 months....

KM has been saying 6-8 month upgrades for the past five years. While history has proven her to be right from time to time she has also been off by up to 2.5 years during this same time span.