Pinnacle upgrades

[dondk]

I thought we had one vacancy where they decreased the amount on the vacancy. It was about 8 months ago...

I thought the reason they gave was something to do with staffing and I don't recall an grievance over it either. The contract does not state anything about reducing the vacancies, only that it can be ammended. I guess you can guess DW's position on that one.

I am with Lear70 on that we should see about 40-50 more CA vacancies then we should see them based on attrition only (about 7% per year).

The only comment I am going to add.. Last fall the union came out with the whole campaign of upgrade now or lose it like they are now. 2 months later we got the announcement of 10 more jets. Not much but at least another 40 CA's. The union is doing the same campaign and there are still 65 options that have been converted but not built yet.

My .02 and not guaranteed in anyway, shape or form

 

[P38JLightning]

how does this happen?

In regards to the issue of street captains, I have to ask how is it that that is happening at PCL in the first place? I will grant you that rapid growth causes lots of upgrades, but street hiring, a lot, direct to a jet?

How/why does a company get into this position in the first place? PCL may be working under an old contract, but I'm sure they, like everyone else, have thousands of resumes on HR's desks.

Do PCL upgrade mins have waivers? Like 3000TT unless you have 2000TT including 1000 with the company and in the equipment or something like that? Seems like that woul dbe better for the company also. That way you don't have a 2999 hour FO with 2500 hours in the plane babysitting a 3000 hour street captain with 500 hours turbo prop time, etc.

I think PCL likes their "bridge" programs or whatever, but they should be tempered with moderation. Comair hires (more likely is required by DAL to hire) 300 hour WMU interns (IOW Delta pre-hires) but those numbers are a small fraction of total pilots hired. Even with a large pipeline of DCAcademy grads in the 1000 hour range, we hire more than enough higher time pilots that we would never have to street hire jet captains no matter how fast we grew, ever. (besides thankfuly our contract prohibits it).

I just don't see what management gains from binging on GIA students or the like.

 

[dondk]

Mgmt gains guaranteed FO's for a defined period of time. Mesa has been doing it for years and it does work. Fixed cost for a fixed period of time, the bean counters can use that for numerous things.

A lower time FO also has no options to go anywhere else, so they are married to the company. Additionally iof the company want to put pressure on these FO's for contract reasons they can. Where will a 1100 hour FO go in this market? not back to a jet!

As for 1000's of resume's on a desk, I have heard they are having problems filling classes. Probably becasue we are no pay and the room and board is on the new hires dime. I am sure that weed's out 30-40% of the potential applicants if not more.

we have waivers, basically 3500 reducable to 3000 with up to 500 hours with time in type. There are other reducers for those employed with the company. Although it is still only 500 hours and it is towards ME and turbine time.

This is the second time in 4 years that they have gone to the street to find peep's for the left seat. It is not surprising for PNCL, this is a typical kneejerk reaction. We don't plan, we react!

 

[redflyer65]

Heard on Friday that the "interview board" is headed back to Fort Lauderdale for another GIA round, not sure how many will be hired, but for now, the pipeline continues. When will the music stop. When it does, it will be quiet for a while.

 

[P38JLightning]

makes sense

dondk,

I guess I can see that. At Comair we have been getting burned by junior FO attrition the last year or two (one of the most expensive kinds of attrition)

Although you might start to see a similar anomoly when the rapid growth spurt stops at PCL in a few years (or sooner?) Some of our junior FO's left for Chautauqua so its possible to get another "jet job" with relatively low time. Eagle and SkyWest have very low mins too (not just published but competitive) but I guess that has less to do with the flight time of the people you hire than it does with the growth rate at other places relative to your own.

 

[dondk]

I have heard that each time they go to FLL it is for no less than 50, on average 80 these last few trips.

P38JLightning,

we had that FO attrition about 18 months ago.. Many guys hired in late '01/early '02 with the promise of upgrade within a year.. Did not happen and we had a decent exodus in '04 from all those tired of waiting. Ironically that is about the same time mgmt increased the GIA numbers from 50/50 per class to almost all GIA per class.

I have heard of a few of our GIA dudes seriously looking at COEX lately. Maybe when the growth stops in the near future we will see another exodus. I'd like to see more CA's getting hired though, a FO is not going to help me

 

[FO 4 Life]

I talked to KM last week about interviewing today. I was upfront with her and told that I had been hired as a captain at another airline and asked about turning new FOs into captains in class. She said that 9E was almost to the point of hiring captains off the street and not waiting until they got to class to upgrade them. She proceeded to say that a memo came down that day ending CA hiring so 9E could run pure FO classes for the next couple months and catch up staffing. She thought I would probably see an upgrade within 6-8 months. I'll take the bird in hand.

 

[English]

I'll take the bird in hand.

Great idea.

I've started doing that myself!

 

[dondk]

A new vacancy came out.
6 CA 4 MEM 1 DTW 1 MSP
64 FO 8 MEM 27 DTW 29 MSP


The largest FO vacancy yet.

 

[DoinTime]

....She thought I would probably see an upgrade within 6-8 months....

KM has been saying 6-8 month upgrades for the past five years. While history has proven her to be right from time to time she has also been off by up to 2.5 years during this same time span.

 

[skyaddict]

Does anyone know what the minimums are for the upgrade bids at Pinnacle? I heard 3500 TT yada yada which I greatly exceed, but I also heard someone say 500 in type (CRJ), which I don't have (mine is 160 as I transitioned from the DoJet). Just wondering if this 500 in type thing is a hard minimum.

 

[dondk]

If you have 3500TT you don't need any in type.. You could have 3500 hours in a seminole and you can bid for the left seat.

 

[John_W_Thompson]

If I am not mistaken one needs 2000 multi and 1000 turbine in addition to the 3500 TT. These are all reducible by a maximum of 500 each, 1 for 1 with each hr flown at 9E.

 

[flagshipper]

space cowboy is correct

 

[skyaddict]

Thanks guys. So they are not somehow imposing a 500 in type barrier on 'street captains' as opposed to the above-mentioned hard minimums? A few of my buddies said they heard the 500 in type mentioned, but by the sounds of it this is BS?

Cheers- skyaddict

 

[dondk]

Space Cowboy and Flagshipper are on the money.. I forgot to mention the 1000 turbine.

There is no "hard" 500 in type.

Personally.. with the latest vacancy of 6 for upgrade, the only bet is a secondary vacancy and that itself should go to a line pilot and not a new hire.

 

[skeeter666]

I just got a call for a interview.....what is the latest on upgrade? I have 1480 in type with a rating.....I am looking to move back to Mem.

 

[Lear70]

The final on Vacancy 05-02 was due out on Monday... it's Friday now and no final vacancy in sight.

Until that comes out, there's no telling. It could be a dozen more Captains, could be none.

Best chances IMHO on getting a CA line now? Very slim odds - too many guys in ahead of you either just finishing class or already started who have the time and not many deliveries left.

Good luck!

 

[John_W_Thompson]

I was just in the CEC a few minutes ago and 05-02 final is posted. I was in Sept 27 new hire class. I have upgraded, & recently I was #1 alternate for MEM CA, but it is looking less and less likely now. I didn't write down the numbers, but I am getting further and further away.

 

[dondk]

Yesterday I was FS, while I did not see a final, I did see a bunch upgrades in various aspects of oral, sim, type rides for the next couple of days. If I had to guess, I would estimate about a dozen and they were all in the 1050+ range of seniority. There are about another dozen who are not new hires in the system as well.

Again, another guess.. the upgrade train may be at a halt for a bit. When it starts back up there should be plenty of in-house candidates.

 

[Lequip]

I just got a call for a interview.....what is the latest on upgrade? I have 1480 in type with a rating.....I am looking to move back to Mem.

Just get inline and wait your turn. You can plan on a long FO ride if you get hired at 9e now as their growth is coming to an end. You missed the boat a long time ago pal.

 

[Enterprise]

I saw the final on Thursday in MSP ops. The last captain was around 480 or so in MSP. I understand that 05-03 will have 24 CAs on it and after that who knows. Our last delivery comes in August and things are slowing down. Those folks who got captain in the 900s or higher are looking at a few years on reserve

 

[Lear70]

I understand that 05-03 will have 24 CAs on it and after that who knows.

That's about what I thought would happen; one last big vacancy with MAYBE half a dozen "street captain" positions (listed NHT - they may even be people who are starting class now), then that will be about all she wrote until this summer when we'll have an "adjustment vacancy" to basically switch some people around from base to base to get them where the company needs them.

One thing to consider: IND is an unknown factor and by all appearances SHOULD be a base (more than 20 crews there every night in the hotel). The only reason I can think it's NOT a base is so NW can attempt to kill off ATA then shift the flying somewhere else. IF that happens, there may be quite a bit more movement to other bases, depending on where they deploy those aircraft to. If the sport bidders sit tight when that happens, there MIGHT be a few more upgrades, but as previously said, by that time plenty of more senior people should have the time.

 

[skeeter666]

thats funny equip....Ive been on the boat for a while.....

 

[Lear70]

Lequip is always like that... don't take it personally.

 

[dondk]

the last thing I heard out of the kool aid factory...

3-4 more vacancies... 1 or 2 "larger" ones then small ones until Sep or Oct.

They want to run classes of 6-8 per class. If you look at the 1 class in May, I think it has 8 in it. Plan on 1-2 classes in june through Aug.

Bust rates recently are once again high.. From the sim it is 5 out of 6 bust the type. Class bust rate are averaging 80% lately.

With those bust rates, it may the reason for higher than expected next vacancy.

They are also hoping that they get some more guys taking the plunge before going to the street, the Indy Air guys are not panning out as planned.

I agree with Lear70, IND is becoming a factor. Make that a base and it will get interesting. Expect some more flying out of that location through the summer.

 

[PCL_128]

Bust rates recently are once again high.. From the sim it is 5 out of 6 bust the type. Class bust rate are averaging 80% lately.

Is that mostly the street captains or is it a good mix of both? I can't imagine that many guys busting the type if they have a few hundred hours in the plane.

 

[dondk]

Well.. it is mostly street guys, those who bust the Oral are street guys

The type bust rate has some guys who have maybe 3-4 months in the right seat (200-300 hours). Although it is still higher on the street side.

Don't know about the Fed/OE bust rates, although I had heard they were cracking down on those too...

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

.....

 

[Lear70]

They are also hoping that they get some more guys taking the plunge before going to the street, the Indy Air guys are not panning out as planned.

I agree with Lear70, IND is becoming a factor. Make that a base and it will get interesting. Expect some more flying out of that location through the summer.

That's really, really weird. I talked to a couple Check Airmen two weeks ago and they were RAVING about the Indy Air guys, saying how nice it was to not have to concentrate on basic airmanship and flying and be able to just teach how our operation runs...

Now if they were coming from FLYI F/O to Capt here, that's a different story. That can be a real ballbuster if you aren't near-perfect somewhere in the program (or if they get even a hint that you're pissed off or bitter about what's going on at Indy - anyone can be washed out if they really want to).

The only reason I can see IND not being a base is because they can't get a firm commitment on how long we'll be there from NWA. It would cost over half a million $$$ to displace 20 or 30 crews out of an IND base if NW suddently reallocates those aircraft somewhere else...