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Pinnacle purchases 15 Q400

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I'm sorry, I think I missed it. Please tell me again. What is the advantage of having a union?
The advantage, genius, is having the chance to EVER get it back.

Without a union, I'd simply bow my head, stick my hands in my pockets and say, "Please Mr. Manager, I'd like the $3,698.23 the company has stiffed me for over the last 5 years. No? Ummm... OK, thanks anyway."

WITH a union, I file a grievance and get the chance to have an arbitrator FORCE the company to pay up.

One way, you have alternatives. The other, you just BOHICA.

I think I still have about 9 unused comp days,,, think I can still ask for "pay in lieu of" per the side letter the company signed to fix that MEC grievance? ;)

I don't have anything against a single pilot at PCL, BUT that kind of innuendo isn't going to foster alot of "brotherhood".
Possibly. But neither is the nonsense VTChaz is posting.

I've stated this before, and I will state it again. I respect the fact that you guys are in a labor negotiating mode with your management, but at the same time we as 9L pilots have worked hard to EARN the additional flying on our certificate and existing codeshares.
I'm not in ANY way trying to diminish your hard work. I'm sure you have a great group of pilots.

The question isn't whether you "deserve" growth, the question is how Pinnacle DELIBERATELY AND INTENTIONALLY PURCHASED YOU TO GET AROUND THE PINNACLE PILOTS AND GROW ELSEWHERE. How is THAT fair or right?

Using your logic of any "new" flying as your basis for a breech of contract on your agreement with PCL managment, do you feel PCL pilots should be flying the FOUR additional Saab 340s that will be flying for USAirways on an EAS contract in Parkersburg and Morgantown, WV? I suggest you answer very carefully and thoughtfully. We are listening and waiting.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead
A valid question. I don't have enough facts to answer. It hinges on one question: was the contract signed by Colgan executives and were the hulls purchased with Colgan assets PRIOR TO the purchase of Colgan Airlines by Pinnacle Airlines?

If the answer to that is yes, then it absolutely is Colgan flying, regardless of when the flying begins.

If the answer to that is no, and Pinnacle Airlines funded the acquisition of those hulls and Phil Trenary's signature is on that dotted line, then that flying, BY LAW and contractual intent, goes to Pinnacle pilots.

Again, I'm not trying to attack your pilots and say you shouldn't grow. I'm simply saying that if Pinnacle is funding the growth, the growth should be happening at Pinnacle.

It's not just my opinion, it's the fact of the Scope clause, how it reads, and the intent of the people who signed the Agreement back in the day. The whole POINT of that section was to avoid what is going on now; that will come out in the legal proceedings.

Join ranks (I know all of the MEC reps personally, and I'd bet a C-note the majority would probably agree to DOH), and you guys will grow TOGETHER.
 
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I don't anticipate it being a major issue. Retro pay, junior-mans/extensions, etc... are the big-ticket items. Block-or-better is pretty much a given.
You forgot to mention pay rates. ;)

I agree; I've always said the block or better system didn't matter much at PCL because of how drastically they over-credited the legs to begin with.

Old news.

PCL: you're feeding the troll. Back away slowly. Go get a beer. :)
 
As far as I know DOT awarded Colgan the contract prior to 18 JAn 07, however, I don't think that any of the contract has been executed. The airplanes are actually 4 of the 7 remaining in Millington that are owned by Pinnacle?
Like I said, no personal axe to grind here. I put my uniform and head off to work just like your guys do, and I respect your position on the issues at hand. Here is a hypothetical for you...What if PCL Holdings were to propose operating more SAABs on the United codeshare? the same routes? Supplementing the SAABs already operating? Would you feel ethically and morally entitled to fly those airplanes?
This is a whipsaw that has the potential to work both ways. I don't think that it makes good business sense to integrate the seniority lists and I can only speak for myself and I don't support it. I am not naive enough to trust managment 100% nor am I inclined to trust ALPA, especially PCL ALPA 100%.
I am confused by one point of detail though...Why would your MEC be scrambling to add a scope letter in your contract at this late date? Perhaps the language in the original scope wasn't what you rank and file members thought it was? That is something that has me wondering and loosing sleep over...After all this crap, I still might go drive a friggin truck for UPS!

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead
 
Wow...

I sit here as a Colgan pilot really concerned about the pinnacle pilot groups attitude as well as the pinnacle's Alpa reps attitude. Seams from my side that you think it is all about yourself

on Alpa'a side,
1. it appears like you want us to join to protect the pinnacle pilots bad contract you got them...Sounds like a great reason for me to want a union.

2. The alpa contract you worked out to make your pilots happy has failed, read the posts, can't seam to find a pinnacle pilot that is happy and likes his job...good job again

I'll let you in on a little secret....if you don't like your job...quit
if enough people quit, the company will change things so there pilots stay longer...stop crying to your union rep...cant't you see it's not working

on the Pilots side
1. All I hear is all new flying, all new airplane types all new everything is our god given right and the Colgan Pilots have no rights to anything except what we don't want....oh and we welcome you

2. Join us....Oh but, lets merge our seniorty lists in a way that benefits us, we coulden't have a senior colgan pilot take our captain slots and make pinnacle pilots fly one of those planes with props.....yuck and it would be against our scope....


heres a little insite...

The pilot group at Colgan for the most part is happy with our job. Industry standard pay, 3 day work weeks and home every night. do you have that? Sure we would all like to be paid more but we understand it is a business and we fly 19 and 34 seat planes. Larger planes mean more money, we are expecting our friends and management to make us an industry standard offer to fly 74 seat airplanes. I believe they will do just that. Why you say....RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER hummmm...interesting concept... I have been here a while and believe the Colgan's truly want the best for there employees....companies thrive if everyone is happy and gets a piece. If ther are problems we call the Colgan's directly and talk about it. Colgan Air was bought because the employees make it valuble. It has 3 code shares because the employees and management showed the major airlines that we have a good product that is in high demand. Everyone knows unhappy employees means bad product.


Last point and I will get off my soap box...

The investors bought Colgan because of its relationship with US Air, Cont, and United. We increase Pinnacle airlines value by being able to bid more competitivaly against air wisky, republic and the rest

The Value to Colgan Air is the money for the Q400 expansion they had been bidding on...

Look at the Pinnacle stock if you want to see Colgan Air's value

Can't we all just get along, fly and have some fun while we are here in the regionals....majors will be hiring soon
 
Care to elaborate what side letters you're talking about??

The game's still early, and Uncle Phil's already tossing a hail mary, trying to squeeze it into the end zone. I don't think it'll take much for you Colganites to experience what we deal with everyday; the red-tape, the idiotic management "memos", basically things that make your blood pressure shoots off the roof.... You may not notice it drastically, but soon, you'll receive a "memo" regarding sick leave, and the next day, you'll receive another "memo"... and before you know it, welcome to Phil's world!!
 
I'll let you in on a little secret....if you don't like your job...quit
if enough people quit, the company will change things so there pilots stay longer...

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha..... :laugh:

<gasp>

.... hahahahahahahahahahaha..... You're killing me....



You can't seriously believe that. You know what companies with poor pay and work rules do when pilots leave too fast? They use training contracts.
 
How is it you got screwed at Pinnacle? You got hired there with just a handful of GIA Beech 1900 hours and minimumally qualified at best. You got to upgrade at the first possible opportunity (when you met the minimum requirement) and got paid the whole time exactly what PCL said they were going to pay you when you hired on. You are building 121 PIC time in a jet.

You should be grateful for the opportunity you have had. But NO, you constantly come on here telling everyone how Pinnacle management has screwed you. Please tell us, exactly how has Pinnacle failed you?

Whiners get very little respect from me!!


Just getting hired at Pinnacle is being screwed!:laugh: Lifer!
 
Wow...

I sit here as a Colgan pilot really concerned about the pinnacle pilot groups attitude as well as the pinnacle's Alpa reps attitude. Seams from my side that you think it is all about yourself
I'm getting that from a few of your guys as well. VTChaz is a prime example.

on Alpa'a side,
1. it appears like you want us to join to protect the pinnacle pilots bad contract you got them...Sounds like a great reason for me to want a union.
It's still a far better contract that what you are working under at Colgan and was a HUGE increase from what they had prior to this agreement.

2. The alpa contract you worked out to make your pilots happy has failed, read the posts, can't seam to find a pinnacle pilot that is happy and likes his job...good job again
No contract in the world is good enough if management has NO intent to honor it.

The problem is the RLA has no teeth; when you work for a unionized carrier with similarly bad relationships, you'll understand this.

I'll let you in on a little secret....if you don't like your job...quit
if enough people quit, the company will change things so there pilots stay longer...stop crying to your union rep...cant't you see it's not working
What CA1900 said.

on the Pilots side
1. All I hear is all new flying, all new airplane types all new everything is our god given right and the Colgan Pilots have no rights to anything except what we don't want....oh and we welcome you
I don't think you'd be saying any different if the roles were reversed.

Hard to watch your company go out and spend millions of dollars made off selling a portion of your company (it was a PCL note) to put airplanes SOMEWHERE ELSE.

2. Join us....Oh but, lets merge our seniorty lists in a way that benefits us, we coulden't have a senior colgan pilot take our captain slots and make pinnacle pilots fly one of those planes with props.....yuck and it would be against our scope....
I think you have it a little backwards. I betcha if you came to the PCL MEC now, you'd get DOH with fences to keep you in your turboprops, keep the PCL CA's in their jets, and let F/O's upgrade into WHATEVER aircraft their seniority holds.

Of course, that's just me being reasonable again.

heres a little insite...

The pilot group at Colgan for the most part is happy with our job. Industry standard pay,
Compared to what industry? Walmart greeters? No offense, but I couldn't survive on your pay rate. Hell, I haven't made that little money since I was a CFI.

we are expecting our friends and management to make us an industry standard offer to fly 74 seat airplanes. I believe they will do just that. Why you say....RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER hummmm...interesting concept...
BWWWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

ROFLMFAO OMG you can't be serious. I just re-read that while quoting and caught it for the first time. You may get the lucky place on my signature line and replace Mr. 1500 Captain for that one.

Trust your "friends and management"... did you just use those two words together in the same sentence? About Nonconnah? OH GOD, I need another beer!!!

Look at the Pinnacle stock if you want to see Colgan Air's value
That's not what's inflating PCL stock. PCL stock is being inflated with the announcement of new income from Continental. The stock market could give a rat's a5s who is actually sitting up front.

Sorry to break it to you.

Can't we all just get along, fly and have some fun while we are here in the regionals....majors will be hiring soon
If I hear that again I think I'm gonna be sick. More self-justification... *sigh*

thank you Rich, I think I will!:beer:
Cool!

Just got back from a couple of frosty ones myself at the hotel bar.

I'm buying on the 21st in MEM evidently... Thought 128 had forgotten about that. Wondering how expensive the bar tab is gonna be, especially since it'll probably end up in Tunica. :drunk:
 
As I said, Proof that the contract that ALPA got Pinnicle pilots did nothing but make a bunch of unhappy pinnicle pilots



Quote:
on Alpa'a side,
1. it appears like you want us to join to protect the pinnacle pilots bad contract you got them...Sounds like a great reason for me to want a union.
It's still a far better contract that what you are working under at Colgan and was a HUGE increase from what they had prior to this agreement.



Don't be so sure, I never have less the 15 days off a month half the time it is 18 and your pay is only about 10k more then mine with no crash pad expenses but keep up with your delusions if it makes you feel better

Quote:
2. The alpa contract you worked out to make your pilots happy has failed, read the posts, can't seam to find a pinnacle pilot that is happy and likes his job...good job again
No contract in the world is good enough if management has NO intent to honor it.

The problem is the RLA has no teeth; when you work for a unionized carrier with similarly bad relationships, you'll understand this.

again I state nice job ALPA......unions Rock I can't wait to pay them for this


Quote:

on the Pilots side
1. All I hear is all new flying, all new airplane types all new everything is our god given right and the Colgan Pilots have no rights to anything except what we don't want....oh and we welcome you
I don't think you'd be saying any different if the roles were reversed.

Don't pretend like you care what happens to the Colgan Pilots
it is clear where you stand


Hard to watch your company go out and spend millions of dollars made off selling a portion of your company (it was a PCL note) to put airplanes SOMEWHERE ELSE.


Quote:
2. Join us....Oh but, lets merge our seniorty lists in a way that benefits us, we coulden't have a senior colgan pilot take our captain slots and make pinnacle pilots fly one of those planes with props.....yuck and it would be against our scope....
I think you have it a little backwards. I betcha if you came to the PCL MEC now, you'd get DOH with fences to keep you in your turboprops, keep the PCL CA's in their jets, and let F/O's upgrade into WHATEVER aircraft their seniority holds.

Of course, that's just me being reasonable again.

You have already shown your true intentions above and lost your credibility



Quote:
we are expecting our friends and management to make us an industry standard offer to fly 74 seat airplanes. I believe they will do just that. Why you say....RESPECT FOR EACH OTHER hummmm...interesting concept...
BWWWAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!

ROFLMFAO OMG you can't be serious. I just re-read that while quoting and caught it for the first time. You may get the lucky place on my signature line and replace Mr. 1500 Captain for that one.

Trust your "friends and management"... did you just use those two words together in the same sentence? About Nonconnah? OH GOD, I need another beer!!!

lets see what offer they make us, should be more then 50 seat RJ pay


Quote:
Look at the Pinnacle stock if you want to see Colgan Air's value
That's not what's inflating PCL stock. PCL stock is being inflated with the announcement of new income from Continental. The stock market could give a rat's a5s who is actually sitting up front.

Sorry to break it to you.

Please o' finance master tell me another line of ********************
 
Does anyone have the Pinnacle scope clause? It'd be interesting to see what the actual wording is.

SECTION 1
RECOGNITION AND JOB SECURITY

A. RECOGNITION

1. In accordance with certification No. R-5727 of the National Mediation
Board, Case No. R-5802, on August 22, 1998, the Company recognizes
the Association as the collective bargaining agent of the pilots employed
by the Company.

2. The Association and the Company hereby adopt this collective bargaining
agreement (including all related letters of agreement between the
Company and the Association). All such agreements are collectively
referred to herein as the “Agreement.”

B. SCOPE

1. Except as provided in subsections B.2. and B.3., below, all present and
future flying of any form performed by or for the Company will be
performed by pilots on the Pilots’ System Seniority List in accordance
with the terms and conditions of the Agreement. The phrase “present and
future flying of any form performed by or for the Company” includes
without limitation all such flying (1) on the Company’s aircraft (whether
leased or owned), or (2) under the Company’s operational control,
including wet leases and contracting for other carriers or entities
(government, military or commercial), but does not include dry leases to
other carrier or entities.

2. Notwithstanding subsection B.1., above, the Company may assign, wet
lease or contract out present or future flying for a period of nine (9)
months during the term of this Agreement if (1) such conduct is necessary
to accomplish the needs of service of the Company, and (2) the Company
does not have sufficient aircraft and pilots to perform such flying. The
Company will notify the MEC Chairman prior to executing the
assignment, subcontracting or wet lease agreement. No pilot will be
furloughed during any assignment, subcontracting or wet leasing.

3. Notwithstanding subsection B.1., above, the Company may (1) use nonseniority
list pilots in connection with aircraft transactions and (2) use
manufacturer’s pilots to currently qualify the initial cadre of instructors
and check airmen on a new aircraft type. Initial cadre means a sufficient
number of instructors and check airmen to train and qualify pilots for the
arriving fleet.

4. The Company will not create or control another airline for the purpose of
transferring the assets of the Company to such airline and avoiding its
obligations to the pilots of the Company under this Agreement.

E. SUCCESSORSHIP


This Agreement will be binding upon any successor or merged Company or
companies or any successor in the control of the Company, regardless of the
nature of the transfer of control (including purchase, sale, merger, consolidation,
acquisition, leasing of the operation, reorganization for the benefit of creditors,
and bankruptcy) unless or until changed in accordance with the provisions of the
Railway Labor Act, as amended. As soon as the Company becomes aware of a
transaction described in the foregoing sentence and it is legally permissible to
disclose such information, it will advise the MEC Chairman.

F. LABOR PROTECTION

1. In the event of the merger or consolidation of the Company with another
airline which affects the seniority rights of pilots covered by this
Agreement, provisions will be made for integration of seniority lists in a

fair and equitable manner as follows:

a. The integration of seniority lists of the respective pilot groups will​


be governed by Association merger policy if both pre-transaction
pilot groups are represented by the Association.

b. If the other pre-transaction pilot group is not represented by the
Association, then Sections 3 and 13 of the Labor Protective
Provisions specified by the Civil Aeronautics Board in the
Allegheny-Mohawk merger (hereinafter "Allegheny-Mohawk
LPPs") will apply.
2. Upon the announcement of a transaction which will or may result in the

acquisition of another airline by the Company or the consolidation of the
Company with another airline, the parties will meet promptly to negotiate
an appropriate fence agreement and/or to implement a seniority integration
process as described in subsection F.1., above. During the period between
the announcement of any transaction described in the preceding sentence
and the earlier of (1) agreement between the parties on a fence agreement,
(2) a completed and implemented seniority integration, or (3) the
operational merger of the entities, no pilot who is furlough protected
pursuant to subsections B.2. and C.1. will be furloughed as a result of such
transaction.

G. RESOLUTION OF DISPUTES

The Company agrees that any grievance filed by the Association alleging a
violation of Section 1 of the Agreement will bypass the initial steps of the
grievance process and will be submitted, heard and resolved through binding
arbitration on an expedited basis directly before the System Board of Adjustment
sitting with a neutral arbitrator. The dispute will be heard no later than thirty (30)
days following the submission to the System Board and decided no later than
sixty (60) days after submission, unless the parties agree otherwise in writing.
 
Thanks 128 for clearing up this huge issue that seem to confuse lots of our fellow Colganites..

Isn't nice to be able to get something off your chest?:) (As long as it's not regarding to upcoming lawsuit, eh?)
 

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