Pinnacle NTSB Update

[efiscompmon]

how are the CRJ pilots (especially Pinnacle) taught to climb, especially to climb after transitioning over to Mach?

Officially, the profile is to climb at 290/.74 in speed mode.

Operationally, the practice is to switch to vertical speed mod in the mid-teens to avoid speed mode's pitch changes while climbing. Because there is no autothrottle, it is common for climb thrust to decay and only be advanced every 5000 feet or so--that new issue of Stuff can be quite compelling. So we do vertical speed "for the passengers comfort" and now add the extra variable of watching AS in addition to the swimsuit models on the way up. Not the published procedure, but I have flown with two check airmen, both who held the company equivalent of Assistant Chief Pilot, and that's how they flew it and that's what they taught.

If the CRJ engines are prone to quit in a high altitude low speed situation, the Feds need to ground the airplane.

Again, high-altitude stall recovery is not part of the curriculum. I have had the pusher activate in the sim at low altitude and the effect is quite dramatic (and violent!) Even trying to be hands-off and of course, the smooth operator that I am (choke), it went into an oscillation that was very difficult to control. I would not care to speculate on its handling characteristics at FL410--hand flown by any pilot regarless of experience. If it started to porpoise as a result, I don't think we can blame the engines for flaming out up there.

It looks like the cowboy culture of line standards and the "never compromise savings" (props to aaron for that one) attitude of management has allowed the unspeakable to happen finally. While it is luck that there were no pax on board, it is unfortunate for everyone that this will get swept under the rug without a public hearing by the NTSB because of the very lack of passengers. Senior dirtbags, I mean management, will point the finger at the crew while quietly disparaging their experience level--conveniently forgetting that they hired and trained them. It's already begun.

THis accident is more than a stall/flameout/failure to relight. It's time that the systemic problems that bred this tragedy are brought to light and corrected.

 

[FracCapt]

Now, If I may, a little advice for those of you who have yet to fly a swept wing, turbo-jet/turbo-fan powered aircraft. Never climb more than two thousand feet in any mode other than IAS(Mach), or an FMS controlled "climb" mode. Never climb, while above the mid twenties, in any mode other than IAS(Mach) or FMS "climb" mode.

That is, IMO, extremely poor advice. Many autopilots will get into pitch oscillations when in airspeed/mach hold. Climbing in VS mode is fine...just PAY ATTENTION to the airspeed and AOA(if installed).

Never, EVER, slow below the AFM climb speed in an attempt to make the last thousand feet or hurry the climb just a little bit.

THAT I agree 100% with. I've seen guys try it...and had to stop them. Those min speeds are there for a reason. Many people say "but there's a safety factor built in, so we can go a little below it". Bullsh!t. I'm not a test pilot. I'm not going to test the limits of any jet at high altitude unless I'm trained to do so.

I've seen the rate of climb vary by a thousand feet over a short period of time while climbing on Mach hold.

And that makes for a very sloppy ride for the pax.

 

[StaySeated]

FWIW, had a -200 empty the other day. No FA, around 9k in fuel, and the FMS said ISA+4. We barely made it to 350. The last 4000 we were doing 300fpm. I had already read stuff, d@mn nikki hilton is way hotter than her slutty sister, so I pulled out the weight/climb chart. After the dust cleared I noticed that 410 is basically impossible according to the canucks. I have killed too many brain cells to remember the actual weights, but only the top left hand corner of the chart shows 410 and the weights were really light and the temps were really cold. BTW, if anyone hasn't heard several locals are starting a "one hour of pay" drive for the families. If you haven't donated yet, write a check equal to one hour of your pay and send it to the families. Every little bit helps and the families need as much help as they can get at this time. Fly safe.

 

[ultrarunner]

I ALWAYS use FLC mode in the 60. And I have always used the IAS/Mach mode in other planes.

It's the safest way.

Can't remember an pitch occolations either. And in a few cases, with OLD planes and autopilots.

 

[trip]

DATE: 10 Nov 04

ATA: General MODEL: CL-600-2B19

SUBJECT: UPDATE ON CRJ200 CRASH IN JEFFERSON CITY, MISSOURI

The following message is sent to all Bombardier CRJ Operators and Bombardier Aerospace Field Service Representatives. This message contains information requiring attention and/or action. Please ensure timely and appropriate distribution within maintenance and flight operations departments.

DISCUSSION:

This All Operator’s Message is intended to provide Operators with an update on the status of this investigation.

The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) is tasked with leading this investigation. Assisting the NTSB are representatives from the Transportation Safety Board of Canada, Transport Canada, the Federal Aviation Administration, the engine OEM, the Airline, the Airline Pilot Association and Bombardier Aerospace.

Although considerably more information is known about this accident than has been announced to the public, Bombardier Aerospace is bound to a strict confidentiality agreement (as are all other parties to the investigation). Information learned during the investigation process must not be released, without the prior approval of the NTSB.

However, we believe the following will be of interest to our Operators. The quoted paragraphs below, were published by the NTSB in a press release dated October 20th 2004:

Begin Quote:
The National Transportation Safety Board today released the following update on its investigation of the October 14, 2004 crash of Pinnacle Airlines flight 3701 in a residential area in Jefferson City, Missouri, about three miles south of the Jefferson City, Missouri, airport. The crash resulted in the deaths of the two crewmen. The airplane was destroyed by the impact forces and a post crash fire. There were no passengers onboard, nor were there any injuries on the ground.

On October 14, 2004, the aircraft departed Little Rock, Arkansas about 9:21 p.m. (CDT), on a repositioning flight en-route to Minneapolis-St. Paul, Minnesota.

Air Traffic Control

At about 9:43 p.m., the flight crew checked in with Kansas City Air Route Traffic Control Center (ARTCC) and indicated that they were climbing to 41,000 feet. At approximately 9:52 p.m., the flight crew acknowledged that they were at 41,000 feet. At about 9:54 p.m., the flight crew asked for a lower altitude. At about 9:55 p.m. the flight crew declared an emergency. At about 9:59 p.m. the flight crew requested an altitude of 13,000 feet. At about 10:03 p.m., the flight crew reported that they had experienced an engine failure at 41,000. At 10:08 p.m., the flight crew stated that they had a double engine failure and that they wanted a direct route to any airport (According to the Flight Data Recorder both engines stopped operating almost simultaneously at 41,000 feet.)

Kansas City ARTCC directed the flight to Jefferson City Missouri Airport. At about 10:13 p.m., the flight crew stated that they had the runway approach end in sight. The last radar contact for the flight was at 900 feet above ground. The plane crashed at about 10:15 p.m.

End Quote:

The flight crew of flight 3701 requested a descent below FL 410. Prior to the descent clearance being obtained, the aircraft Stall Protection System (SPS) activated to alert the flight crew of the onset of an aerodynamic stall. The SPS further activated to prevent the stall. The SPS system functioned several times, as intended, during the aircraft upset. However, the aircraft eventually aerodynamically stalled and aircraft attitudes beyond engine certification requirements were experienced. During the upset, both engines experienced a near simultaneous loss of power. At an altitude of approximately FL 290, the aircraft had been recovered to a stable flight condition.

The Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) was running by FL 290. The windmill start procedures, as defined in the CRJ-200 Aircraft Flight Manual (AFM) require a minimum airspeed of 300 knots indicated at an altitude of FL 210 or below before this procedure should be attempted. The 300-knot airspeed requirement was never achieved during the descent.

It appears that several APU starter assisted in-flight relights were attempted once the upper edge of the envelope was reached at 13,000 feet. The engine start attempts were not successful. The investigation is continuing.




Out of control from 410-290,
For an APU relight a couple of key steps must be taken-- 10th bleeds closed and APU LCV open. Below 13,000 of course.

 

[h25b]

I ALWAYS use FLC mode in the 60. And I have always used the IAS/Mach mode in other planes.

It's the safest way.

Can't remember an pitch occolations either. And in a few cases, with OLD planes and autopilots.

A BUNCH of autopilots have occilations in the pitch axis while trying to climb in FLC/IAS modes, especially in turbulent conditions. This is not at all uncommon. The Hawker 800A's Honeywell system is quite prone to this as is the 30 series Learjets AND many others. The absolute smoothest way to climb is in Vertical Speed Mode. Furthermore, while climbing with the autopilot engaged in FLC/IAS during turbulent conditions I have seen the mach number decay below a suitable speed if only for a moment. But a moment can be all it takes for things to start going south in a hurry. My point is, I have seen instances where FLC/IAS modes ARE NOT fool-proof and the crew is ultimately responsible for maintaining situational awareness and safe aircraft control no matter what mode they choose to use on the autopilot...

You WILL have to monitor your mach/airspeed to make sure you stay within AFM flight envelope... I don't think you could call the practice of climbing is Vertical Speed inherently unsafe. You are, after all, getting paid to monitor the condition of your aircraft at all times. I think the topic of managing automation has been covered before, and as always, some choose to pay attention and some don't...

By the way, whoever says that jets are way easier than turboprops are fools, that statement way oversimplifies. EVERY type of aircraft has their own gotchas that can and will kill the complacent flight crews.

 

[405]

It was warm that night

Do a Google search for Upper Air Sounding Archives for Oct 15 at 00Z. See what you find at FL410 compared to standard ISA temps and let me know what you get. It's really interesting.

 

[patq1]

" some suggestions of good books and/or other resources to study for those of us who are soon to fly a swept wing jet for the first time?

Try "Handling The Big Jets" byD.P. Davies

 

[Gulfstream 200]

I ALWAYS use FLC mode in the 60. And I have always used the IAS/Mach mode in other planes.

It's the safest way.

Can't remember an pitch occolations either. And in a few cases, with OLD planes and autopilots.

MANY aircraft cannot be flown to altitude on FLC or IAS hold as they will oscillate so much that you look terrible nevermind practically throw-up. Most will FLC well through the early 20's but after that the use of VS and auto-throttles maxed seems to be pretty standard (for those who know where the Airspeed Indicator is)

In these I will include Global Express, Falcon 50EX, Falcon 900EX, and Galaxy. And the oldest one of the bunch I have flown is a 2001 model. (Not really OLD planes and autopilots)

If you need FLC or IAS to keep you safe in a climb you have no business flying a jet.....(or chewing gum really).

jesh...common sense folks.....

 

[h25b]

"If you need FLC or IAS to keep you safe in a climb you have no business flying a jet.....(or chewing gum really).

jesh...common sense folks....."

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was getting at. And as usual, you're much more to the point!!!

 

[Lear70]

To the point, the CRJ is TERRIBLE at holding speed in either IAS or MACH climb modes. It will pitch up and down with any slight wind shift or temperature change and then start "chasing" the speed bug you've set.

The higher you climb, the worse it gets, I don't know why another Bombardier product doesn't perform as well as the 60... oh yeah, sure I know why, because it's a LEARJET. Since Bombardier took over the whole aircraft line SUCKS, but I digress...

I don't let the F/O's climb in speed mode once the autopilot starts "chasing" the speed, mostly for pax comfort as we're never near any speeds where it might be a safety issue, but also because it's just poor technique in the CRJ and bad habits as an F/O will lead to bad habits as a CA. Additionally, operating in Vertical Speed mode requires the flying pilot to constantly track what the airplane is doing to maintain the desired speed which is a much better place to be in terms of S/A IMHO.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

> The PCL MEC has established two funds to honor the pilots killed in

> last week's accident.

>

> If you wish to make a donation to honor Captain J R, please

> make your check payable to:

>

> J R Family Support Fund

> Wings Financial Federal Credit Union

> 14985 Glazer Avenue

> Apple Valley, MN 55124

>

> If you wish to make a donation to honor First Officer P C,

> please make your check payable

> to:

>

> P C Memorial Fund

> Wings Financial Federal Credit Union

> 14985 Glazer Avenue

> Apple Valley, MN 55124

>

> Within the next few days, the MEC will deal with the appropriate

> resolutions to set up these trust funds.

>

> Representatives of the Pinnacle MEC Retirement and Insurance Committee

> have determined that the wife and children of Captain R will no

> longer be covered by company health insurance after October 31. We

> have requested that the company consider extending free coverage to

> Alison at least until after her third child has been delivered in the

> next eight weeks. We anticipate that this request will be denied.

> Therefore, it is the intent of the Pinnacle MEC to use any funds

> collected on behalf of the R family for the purpose of paying the

> family's COBRA health insurance coverage and associated deductibles

> and copays. Further funds collected will be used at the discretion of

> the fund trustees with guidance from the entire MEC.

>

> Wednesday, at the ALPA Board of Directors meeting in Hollywood,

> Florida, Captain M M, chairman of the Northwest MEC, rose to

> address the assembled delegates. Captain M spoke of the

> tremendous burdens facing the families of our departed crewmen and

> urged the delegates to make an on-the-spot contribution and provide

> seed money for these memorial funds. Thanks to Captain M's

> efforts, more than $7,500 in cash was collected. Today, these funds

> will be deposited into the accounts described above and give us a

> great start in providing needed benefits to these families.

>

> At this time I would like to extend special recognition to the

> Pinnacle MEC Critical Incident Response team, particularly our Detroit

> CIRP rep, DM. D expended a tremendous amount of time and

> energy in organizing and implementing the MEC reaction to this

> accident. Unfortunately, CIRP Chairman GM was on

> vacation, and the entire load of the initial response was carried by

> D. PCL CIRP volunteers have been in constant communication with the

> victims' families and other CIRP organizations at Northwest, Mesaba,

> and FedEX, and have done all the work on setting up the memorial

> funds. Congratulations to the CIRP team for a job very well done.

>



> Chairman, Pinnacle MEC

 

[enigma]

Here's a question for those of you who are VS climb advocates. What do you do, when climbing in VS, if the airspeed drops off? Do you hold your VS and sacrific airspeed? Do you reduce your VS in order to maintain airspeed? What?

enigma

 

[h25b]

Here's a question for those of you who are VS climb advocates. What do you do, when climbing in VS, if the airspeed drops off? Do you hold your VS and sacrific airspeed? Do you reduce your VS in order to maintain airspeed? What?

enigma

I think we answered this one. I don't think any of us are advocating using anything, just pointing out that it is not unsafe and sometimes preferable in terms of operational technique. I would think anyone who's climbed in FLC/IAS in the 30000' flight regime in chop could testify to this. The other point is certain groups of people are always looking for ways to make operations "fool-proof," which is impossible (partly because fools are so ingenious).

To answer your question, obviously one still must maintain an operationally safe airspeed within the recommended flight envelope by simply rolling down the selected vertical speed. Come on man, what's the alternative?

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Here's a question for those of you who are VS climb advocates. What do you do, when climbing in VS, if the airspeed drops off? Do you hold your VS and sacrific airspeed? Do you reduce your VS in order to maintain airspeed? What?

enigma

You maintain the speed and level off if you have to. Because, if you're heavy, and get slow, you're not getting that speed back.

 

[zonker]

I flew the CRJ for 4.5 years, and I always operated it in V/S mode and monitored the speed profile, which was 290/.74 at the time. A little faster than that doesn't hurt, either. Occasionally in turbulence I would fly it in pitch mode because it would tend to chase the V/S as well. IAS mode is almost completely useless in this airplane, IMO. The lack of power becomes apparent above FL 200 (and during a v1 cut), and Oakum Boy is correct... once you've lost your airspeed, it's not coming back except in a level off or a descent.

It may be "certified" for 410, but what is reasonable or practical in this airplane is another matter entirely.

 

[upndsky]

In the Jungle Jet, I'll fly FLC to 10,000 feet, which is a speed hold of 240 KIAS. Past 10K, I'll dial down the VSI to 1,000 fpm and let the plane accelerate to 290-300 KIAS. Then I'll crank up the VSI to 1,500-2,000 fpm (depending on weight, temp). When the speed hits .65M, I'll set the VSI to maintain that.

I don't have a whole lot of time in the ERJ, but it seems to work well.

 

[patq1]

MANY aircraft cannot be flown to altitude on FLC or IAS hold as they will oscillate so much that you look terrible nevermind practically throw-up. Most will FLC well through the early 20's but after that the use of VS and auto-throttles maxed seems to be pretty standard (for those who know where the Airspeed Indicator is)

In these I will include Global Express, Falcon 50EX, Falcon 900EX, and Galaxy. And the oldest one of the bunch I have flown is a 2001 model. (Not really OLD planes and autopilots)

If you need FLC or IAS to keep you safe in a climb you have no business flying a jet.....(or chewing gum really).

jesh...common sense folks.....

I agree completely. You can add the Hawker 800,800XP, and Challenger 600 to that list. I am appalled at some of the things I see posted here. Most of the airplanes that we fly will only go to their max altitude under very restrictive conditions of weight and temperature. You better have the numbers right or you are not going to make it. No amount of hoping or wishing is going to change the physics involved. But then again if you are trying for an altitude that is unattainable(temps higher than forecast, for instance) you don't just suddenly fall out of the sky. It becomes readily apparent well before you reach that point. It then is your responsibility to inform ATC and head back down. Or if the situation is becoming dangerous start down and then tell ATC but obviously it should never get that far.

pat

 

[Captain X]

Would this really be an issue if "regional jets" were actually powered the way a jet should be? (I say that tongue in cheek). But by that I mean a jet should be able to:

1. Takeoff
2. Accelerate to Vmo/Mmo
3. Climb at Vmo/Mmo
4. Cruise at Vmo/Mmo
5. Descend at Vmo/Mmo
6. Slow down
7. Land
8. Go have a beer

Anything slower than that should be commanded by the pilot. And any aircraft should have the available thrust to climb to its maximum service ceiling at its maximum weight, stay there and have its full operating envelope available. When I'm the boss I will fix this!

The derated engines that they hang on aircraft these days for economical purposes (JET SPEED TURBOPROP EFFECIENCY) are also a factor that hampers climb performance in modern small passenger jets.

On the 145 at least we get a couple of options:

1. Clog the departure route with a climb speed 30-40 KTS slower than most of the bigger planes and have ATC get grumpy with us.

2. Clog the departure route with a climb rate 500-1000 FPM slower than most of the bigger planes and have ATC get grumpy with us.

Of course I'm partly joking about that but I think ya'll get my point.

 

[NewBlue]

I remember a regional coming out of Denver a while back in a CR7 that put it in v/s mode and then went into the ignore mode.........until the stick shaker went off that is.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

That's why Pitch mode is the safest and sometimes most accurate mode to climb in. If for some reason its forgotten, it will just level off and maybe start descending once the wings get tired...

 

[patq1]

That's why Pitch mode is the safest and sometimes most accurate mode to climb in. If for some reason its forgotten, it will just level off and maybe start descending once the wings get tired...

Yes it will start descending once you stall. I sincerely hope you were kidding.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Yes it will start descending once you stall. I sincerely hope you were kidding.

Keep in mind this is a theoretical exercise and never to be tried except in a simulator. Having said that; say you have a +2.0 degree deck angle set. As you climb into less dense air your V/S will decrease until the aircraft levels off and maybe descends, eventually finding equillibrium. This is considering everything else is stable, like the air and available CLB thrust is maintained. It is in my opinion an accurate way to climb, but into the higher flight levels, V/S is better for control of the profile.

Conversely, consider setting vertical speed at 500 fpm and letting it go. As air density decreases, the airplane will CONTINUE TO PITCH UP to achieve the desired climb rate. When it runs out of energy, it will stall.

HOWEVER- The CRJ autopilot will disconnect at a predetermined AOA, coincident with the stick shaker.

Of course one should never find himself in this scenario, but for the sake of pondering the attributes of this fine aircraft....

 

[enigma]

I think we answered this one. I don't think any of us are advocating using anything, just pointing out that it is not unsafe and sometimes preferable in terms of operational technique. I would think anyone who's climbed in FLC/IAS in the 30000' flight regime in chop could testify to this. The other point is certain groups of people are always looking for ways to make operations "fool-proof," which is impossible (partly because fools are so ingenious).

To answer your question, obviously one still must maintain an operationally safe airspeed within the recommended flight envelope by simply rolling down the selected vertical speed. Come on man, what's the alternative?

h25b, I'll be the first to admit that I'm a not your average bear and maybe my thought processes work differently than most, so I recognize that my quirks sometimes make my hard to follow.
Sorry.

You wrote, "obviously one still must maintain an operationally safe airspeed within the recommended flight envelope by simply rolling down the selected vertical speed."

What's the difference between you varying the rate of climb with the VS wheel, and me varying the rate of climb with airspeed? To me, you're doing the same thing that I am, except that I have airspeed protection and you don't.

enigma

 

[73belair]

h25b, I'll be the first to admit that I'm a not your average bear and maybe my thought processes work differently than most, so I recognize that my quirks sometimes make my hard to follow.
Sorry.

You wrote, "obviously one still must maintain an operationally safe airspeed within the recommended flight envelope by simply rolling down the selected vertical speed."

What's the difference between you varying the rate of climb with the VS wheel, and me varying the rate of climb with airspeed? To me, you're doing the same thing that I am, except that I have airspeed protection and you don't.

enigma

The why do you set the VS mode rather than IAS mode in the CRJ is because above about 15k or so and all the way up it pitches a lot to keep the speed. You can see the VS vary anywhere from 15000fpm to 500fpm. So we set it to VS and monitor the airspeed. It is different because we are able to keep the airplane from pitching up and down trying to keep the speed. As speed decreases we decrease the climb rate to compensate. So rather and an up and down nose we just have a slowly settling down nose. Once we get to 500fpm on the VS mode we let it climb that way until it gets to cruise. No pitching. Climb is (after 10k ft) 290/.70, and the airspeed can bleed back to 250 in the climb, but no lower.

 

[enigma]

That is, IMO, extremely poor advice. Many autopilots will get into pitch oscillations when in airspeed/mach hold. Climbing in VS mode is fine...just PAY ATTENTION to the airspeed and AOA(if installed).

THAT I agree 100% with. I've seen guys try it...and had to stop them. Those min speeds are there for a reason. Many people say "but there's a safety factor built in, so we can go a little below it". Bullsh!t. I'm not a test pilot. I'm not going to test the limits of any jet at high altitude unless I'm trained to do so.

And that makes for a very sloppy ride for the pax.

FracCapt, I may have been slightly too adamant by using NEVER, but I do believe that my advice is acceptable in the context in which it was given. This advice was directed toward new jet pilots, especially toward guys who are flying heavily loaded, poor performing airline aircraft.



I don’t disagree that there is nothing unsafe about utilizing VS for a long climb, but it is not the safest way, especially when you are approaching the edge of the envelope. I’ve used VS and or pitch hold myself, but that was in a Lear with performance to spare. In DC9’s and Super80’s the oscillations you refer to are of small amplitude. I doubt that the pax ever even notice if the climb rate varies between 500 and 1500fpm.

Let me approach the subject this way. The laws of physics apply to the airplane regardless of the method used to control the climb. Assuming that we all climb at maximum climb power, and recognizing that aircraft climb ability changes due to atmospheric variations during the climb, the aircraft is not capable of a consant rate of climb. You can either manually use verticle speed mode and vary the verticle speed in response to the changing conditions, or you can use speed hold. Either way, the rate of climb will not remain constant, but the pilot climbing in speed hold will have airspeed protection.

enigma

 

[enigma]

The why do you set the VS mode rather than IAS mode in the CRJ is because above about 15k or so and all the way up it pitches a lot to keep the speed. You can see the VS vary anywhere from 15000fpm to 500fpm. So we set it to VS and monitor the airspeed. It is different because we are able to keep the airplane from pitching up and down trying to keep the speed. As speed decreases we decrease the climb rate to compensate. So rather and an up and down nose we just have a slowly settling down nose. Once we get to 500fpm on the VS mode we let it climb that way until it gets to cruise. No pitching. Climb is (after 10k ft) 290/.70, and the airspeed can bleed back to 250 in the climb, but no lower.

What do you do if the speed decays after you reach 500fpm?

I fear that I've given you guys the wrong impression. I completey understand why you climb in VS. I just don't agree that doing so is as safe, or as efficient as climbing in a speed hold mode.

enigma

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Climb in VFLC

We program our 900EX to climb at 300/.80. Climb in VFLC and that protects you. FMS will descend to maintain if it has too.

Having said that, we never try to outclimb the gross weight either. The 900 and 50 seem to be very sensitive to ISA plus anything. If we're close to a published climb weight and its not minus 10, we'll wait till the next weight. We've also noticed on the 50 that if the trim is less than 2 degrees nose down you can usually climb to the next FL.

We used to have a C650 that was certified to 510, but at a weight less than our BOW. Made it to 46700 once, but the wing started rumbling so we descended.

When I flew for Eagle, it was standard to fly in VS but it was also standard to forget and open the paper and get the shaker. It was pretty funny the second time and always funny when it happend to someone else.

 

[73belair]

What do you do if the speed decays after you reach 500fpm?

I fear that I've given you guys the wrong impression. I completey understand why you climb in VS. I just don't agree that doing so is as safe, or as efficient as climbing in a speed hold mode.

enigma

That is where being a pilot with training comes in handy. If you can't do at least 250kts and 500fpm then you arn't going to get to your cruise altitude and you need to pick a lower one. Simple as that. I don't know about other places, but this is hammered into us at ASA. You can look at the charts in the airplane, but usually there are so many other outside things that you just need to only do what the airplane is telling you it can do.

 

[h25b]

Enigma,

Sorry if I came off as a butthead (happens often... ). Anyway, I think you will find that using VS gives you a much more stable climb. Like I have said, when you get in to chop or start having large ISA variations you'll start to see the autopilot "chase" for the selected airspeed. The result WILL BE that the pitch oscillates up and down. Just not the result people expect from a professional pilot. Likewise as I stated earlier, in some instances that I have personally witnessed when you're getting larger temp. variation during turbulent conditions the autopilot simply cannot manage it and you'll end up with airspeed variations as well. So in that case you just lost the airspeed protection. So, in my opinion climbing in FLC/IAS is not the more safe way to go and it is certainly not better in terms of aircraft control and passenger comfort.

By the way, like the other guy said... If you cannot maintain 500'/min and the min climb airspeed that just simply means that the aircraft is not capable of climbing to that altitude under those conditions...