Pinnacle/MESA

[dondk]

BE1900 and DHC-8 upgrades are less then 6 months if you have the time (IE: ATP and competitive times are around 2000 hrs)

ERJ currently 2-2.5 yrs
CRJ currently a tad bit less than 4 years, but this is based on the fact that Mesa didn't hire for well over 2 years... Now we're taking 80+ a month so anticipated upgrade in the ERJ is 1.5 and CRJ as little as 2....

I worked for Mesa 3 1/2 years ago.. been at Pinnacle for 2 1/2 now...

This is what I know.. Most of my Mesa Buddies (Air Midwest) are still Captains in the 1900.. They have been with Mesa for just shy of 3 1/2 years.. NONE of them are able to upgrade in to ANY jet as the jet upgrade was frozen.. They are all paid Jet Captain rates and are looking to upgrade sometime this year. So where the 2-2 1/2 year is coming from is beyond me... Only one in the high 500's in seniority is going and most of my classmates are in the low 700's...

When I was hired Mesa also pumped a lot of low timers into the ERJ in the Summer of '00.. all of them should have the time to upgrade. So unless Mesa has a ton or ERJ's laying around, I doubt you will see the jet get down below 2 years way too many people in line for the upgrade..

As for the 1900 and DHC-8.. yep, they are upgrading fast an furious because just about every 1900 and DHC-8 captain who have been stuck in the left seat for the past 2-3 years is going to the jet. Once this happens you will see the 1900 and DHC-8 climb again.

Now for Pinnacle.. My number is just about there for upgrade.. it will be just over 2 1/2 years and that counts a furlough into the equation.


Going to either company (mesa or Pinnacle) and asumming to upgrade in a jet in less than 3 years is just crazy.. it is not going to happen.. Soon at Pinnacle you will see the upgrades move into the 4 and 5 year mark as we are slowly running out of the need for captains.. maybe another 150 more to go then that should be it unless more jets appear on the property.

Mesa.. don't lose sight that for most of 00 and 01 they were hiring ton's of MAPD and San Juaner's into the right seat.. 3 years later they all have the time to upgrade and now the seniority.

 

[ERJpusher]

... while Comair negotiated their contract during one of the best economic times in history....

...THE WHIPSAW MUST STOP!...

I, like many others, am envious at times of Comair's payrates. However, poeple speak of Comair as if they are the best thing since sliced bread. In reality, Comair is solely responsible for the"whipsawing" that has become so prevalent in the regional airlines.

Why did all the new jets go to Pinnacle instead of Mesaba? Why didn't Northwest go through with their proposed acquisition of Mesaba? Why did they feel the need for healthy competition between their own regionals? Because of Comair, directly or indirectly.

In 2000, Northwest was set to purchase nearly all of Mesaba. NWA was watching the other majors make tons of money off their regionals. Just before they pulled the trigger on the purchase, Comair goes on strike. Several weeks and $200 million in losses later, Delta settles with Comair for the most lucrative regional contract ever.

Northwest and all other major airlines see what just happened to Delta. DAL management was just held hostage by their own regional carrier. This was an unprecedented event in airline history.

Overnight, whole-ownership of a regional went from being a great asset to a huge liability. Northwest pulls its offer to buy Mesaba, who is just entering contract negotiations, and begins plans to develop and expand Pinnacle. All new aircraft go to Pinnacle. Why? To avoid a future problems with Mesaba in case negotiations went all the way to a strike. This way, there is less impact on NWA operations and much less leverage that Mesaba has to work with. Did NWA necessarily want to do this? No--- they were forced to in order to avoid another DAL/COmair ordeal.

I have great respect for Comair, its people, and definitely its contract. Their contract is the standard by which we all measure our own. The intentions of this post is NOT to flame anyone, but to share fact that can be substantiated by any management of any airline.

And to you Pinnacle people taking shots at Mesaba--- I hope your intentions are honorable. I feel that many of you are being selfish regarding your own contract negotiations coming in 2005. I seriously doubt that you actually have any empathy toward Mesaba in their current problems--- most notably, dealing with PINNACLE's acquisition of all new NWA flying.

I don't recall Pinnacle declining any growth for the sake of their Mesaba "brothers."

 

[T-Gates]

I don't recall Pinnacle declining any growth for the sake of their Mesaba "brothers."

Well considering that NWA Corp owned 100% of us up until a few months ago, I don't really think anyone at Pinnacle had ANY autority to decline new NWA flying.... Thats kinda a cheapshot....

 

[DoinTime]

ERJPusher...Your post was seriously misguided and unfactual. I would recomend you do some homework before you settle back in that easy chair and come up with your version of "how it all got started."

 

[JJJ]

I don't recall Pinnacle declining any growth for the sake of their Mesaba "brothers."

It may suprise you, but I actually advise Richard Anderson on issues concering CRJ flying under the NWA brand ie allocation, routes, etc.

Obviously Pinnacle pilots don't have a say in any of these isues. If NWA allocates more CRJ's to us, we can't say "no thanks, give them to Mesba"

The only growth that we would "decline" or refuse would be struck work

 

[jetset]

For what it's worth, I don't think the relationship between Pinnacle, Mesaba, and Northwest pilots are reflected on this message board. In reality it's so much better. There are only a handful of people here who may or may not even be pilots just stiring the pot. And thee annonymity doesn't hurt. (talk about spelling?)

Please keep in mind that the few people here-many are just clowns, do not represent the pilot group. Most of the pilots you encounter during a days work are much more professional, level-headed, I would like to think more educated, and always glad to give you a ride home. And they are not hiding behind a screen name, either.

Don't buy into the "my daddy can beat up your daddy" mentality.

 

[ERJpusher]

ERJPusher...Your post was seriously misguided and unfactual. I would recomend you do some homework before you settle back in that easy chair and come up with your version of "how it all got started."

Firstly, my apologies to Pinnacle pilots for the last statement in my previous post. My point was not to bash you guys at Pinnacle, but instead to emphasize the fact that some things are out of everyone's control. Of course Pinnacle can't deny flying that comes their way. In the same sense, Mesaba can't control how many planes Pinnacle gets, or what kind of contract Pinnacle signs. I agree with an above post that the majority of "Airlinkers" are great people and seem to get along quite well. My post was directed at those on this board who feel the need to take it upon themselves to try and dictate what occurs at a company they don't even work at. I definitely should have used a little more tact.

DoinTime,

Feel free to enlighten me on whatever information you have on this subject. I always want to learn. My statements were based on numerous articles and point-blank media statements from NWA management over the last 3 years, but I would be glad to know what you have to say.

In the meantime, here's a couple articles I dug up for you to browse through...

...FROM STAR TRIBUNE, January 2004

Mesaba Airlines has been ferrying passengers from small cities throughout the Upper Midwest to Northwest Airlines' hub airports in the Twin Cities and Detroit since 1984, and in 2000 Northwest said it wanted to buy the remaining stock of Mesaba that it didn't already own.

But all that changed when pilots at another regional carrier, Comair, went on strike in March 2001.

That strike lasted three months, shut down Cincinnati's airport and cost Comair's owner, Delta Air Lines, an estimated $200 million in lost profits. In the end, Comair's pilots won a contract that included immediate pay raises of 13 to 15 percent, making them the highest-paid in the regional jet industry.

That victory by the pilots forced other major airlines to reevaluate their relationships with the regional airlines, which had become critical to their growth. No longer were big carriers willing to rely on one regional airline at any of their hubs. And owning regional carriers, viewed as the best way to exert operational control through the '90s, suddenly became a liability as labor unions at the small carriers began flexing their muscles.

Northwest, which gets an estimated $1 billion in revenue from its regional partners, dropped its bid to acquire the remaining shares of Mesaba in the wake of the Comair strike, and has since shifted a larger portion of its flying to Pinnacle Airlines, another regional carrier that it owned until last year.

That has left Mesaba's pilots with far less leverage than they had three years ago.

"The major carriers learned that, by putting all their eggs in one basket, they put themselves at peril in the event of a strike," said Douglas Abbey, president of AvStat, a Washington, D.C., firm that closely follows the small-jet market. "Owning them also meant that the unions had deep pockets they could go after."

That resolve only hardened as the worst economic slump in the history of the aviation industry pushed two major carriers, United Air Lines and US Airways, into bankruptcy and caused each to renegotiate contracts that allowed regional partners to make money even as the big airlines lost billions.

"The contracts had become so rich and so risk-free for the regional airlines," said Robert Mann, president of the New York-based consulting firm R.W. Mann & Co.

A key to new markets

Regional jets remain vital to the future of the airline industry. The smaller planes flown by lower-paid pilots allow big airlines to enter new markets with less risk and also afford a lower-cost way to maintain a presence if demand weakens or competition increases. In the wake of the terrorist attacks of 9/11, more Americans than ever -- an estimated one in six -- now fly on a regional airline.

But the generous contracts that governed the relationship between the big company and small company, contracts that guaranteed profit margins in some cases of 12 percent and 14 percent, are a thing of the past. Growth of lower-cost, independent regional carriers such as Mesa and Skywest has only added to the pressure at small carriers such as Mesaba, which is partly owned by Northwest.

Northwest hasn't been at the bargaining table with Mesaba's pilots, but it didn't need to be. It provides all of Mesaba's planes, customers and revenue.

In the two years since the Comair strike ended, Northwest studiously built up the operations of Pinnacle Airlines, a Memphis-based regional partner that it owned until last year. It has allocated all of its sleek new 50-seat Canadair jets, as well as most of the new regional service out of the Twin Cities and Detroit, to Pinnacle.

In July 2001, Northwest began assigning to Pinnacle routes out of Detroit and the Twin Cites that once were the exclusive domain of Mesaba. Pinnacle now flies 162 daily departures from those two hubs, versus 62 from its home base of Memphis.

Other airlines have done the same. Delta still owns Comair, but Atlantic Coast Airlines now does a lot of contractual flying for Delta out of Cincinnati. Last year US Airways, which owns regional carriers Allegheny and PSA, shifted some routes to Mesa and last week said it may sell its regional operations.

Mesaba pilots have accused Northwest of pitting its pilot group against Pinnacle's, an argument that George Hopkins, the author of three books on pilot unions and a history professor at Western Illinois University in Macomb, Ill., sympathizes with.

"They [Northwest] are whipsawing the hell out of" Mesaba's pilots, Hopkins said.

But industry consultant Mann said the big airlines are doing what they have to do to survive -- squeezing costs wherever they can.

"In light of what went on with Comair, it's really just a diversification strategy," Mann said. "Let's be honest. Management can't put itself in a position where it can be held hostage."

...FROM CNBC MONEYCENTRAL, June 2001

Mesaba Holdings, Inc. confirmed that Northwest Airlines has withdrawn the proposal it made last November to acquire the shares of Mesaba stock that it does not already own. Northwest said in its news release that they look forward to the possibility of expanding their relationship with Mesaba, and that the reasons to terminate discussions are related to recent developments in the regional airline industry which caused them to re-evaluate their ownership relationships with the regional airlines with which they have service agreements.

 

[cl-65link]

ERJ pusher, you need to research a little farther back in time, say spring of '97, when NW awarded all Airlink flying out of MSP to XJ. 9E had 2 hubs at that time MEM and MSP, and by the end of '97, we only had MEM. NW has played this game before.

 

[ERJpusher]

Sounds like good business sense to me. Why split two different companies between two different hubs? It seems to me that the whipsawing would be more prevalent when two companies are competing for the same business out of the same base, AKA right now.

 

[Beantown]

This is what I know.. Most of my Mesa Buddies (Air Midwest) are still Captains in the 1900.. They have been with Mesa for just shy of 3 1/2 years.. NONE of them are able to upgrade in to ANY jet as the jet upgrade was frozen.. They are all paid Jet Captain rates and are looking to upgrade sometime this year. So where the 2-2 1/2 year is coming from is beyond me... Only one in the high 500's in seniority is going and most of my classmates are in the low 700's...

Just to set the record stright here, as of last week, ERJ CA went into the 720's at Mesa. I think that puts upgrade on the ERJ at 3+ yrs or so. All your buddies will be CA very soon. -Bean
GO PATS!!!!