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pinnacle class cancelled
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CapnVegetto
The Prince of all Saiyans
- Joined
- Mar 24, 2005
- Posts
- 1,981
No ones trying to beat up anyone junior. I have major time as well as regional time, without counting military. My point is lets stop trying to beat each other up. Unfortunatly I'm finding out a good lesson. I was once told by a Captain at a major I flew at that being an airline pilot is not a team sport, but an individual sport. I know believe thats true. And by the way I did see your CL-65 on your list, but I also saw 70 and 900. Must be Freedom or Mesa do you want to say more?
CapnVegetto
The Prince of all Saiyans
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- Mar 24, 2005
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- 1,981
Yeah man (holding up peace sign), I don't want to get into a pi$$ing contest. I was Mesa, never did Freedom. I worked there for a year, and that was about 11 months and 29 days too much. 
I've learned the bigger the airplane you fly, the bigger the suitcase you pack. I'm going to drive my slowtation around, and play golf, hunt, and fish. The airline lifestyle was just not for me. I didn't like the commuting, and being gone so much. I know there are plenty of guys out there that love it, and that's cool. I know mesa is the bottom of the barrel, and you're probably treated a whole lot better somewhere else, but I guess I'm just lazy. Why would I want to work 900 hours a year when I can work 200?
I'm glad I at least tried the airlines, but in the end, it just wasn't my cup of tea. I love what I do now, though. Wouldn't have it any other way.
I've learned the bigger the airplane you fly, the bigger the suitcase you pack. I'm going to drive my slowtation around, and play golf, hunt, and fish. The airline lifestyle was just not for me. I didn't like the commuting, and being gone so much. I know there are plenty of guys out there that love it, and that's cool. I know mesa is the bottom of the barrel, and you're probably treated a whole lot better somewhere else, but I guess I'm just lazy. Why would I want to work 900 hours a year when I can work 200? I'm glad I at least tried the airlines, but in the end, it just wasn't my cup of tea. I love what I do now, though. Wouldn't have it any other way.
CapnVegetto
The Prince of all Saiyans
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Carl_Spackler
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 10, 2005
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- 705
Guys we all are human,we all make mistakes thats how we learn,howevever its sad that the training dept. does not pick up these things from the start.What flagshipper mentioned earlier with a capt. lecturing him and then setting off the stick shaker on final is so true of a capt. that is weak in his abilities and being the capt. I to have flown with captains like that,and he did the right thing,report him you wall not only save the day but also the captain.Bacause on a dark and stormy night with a weak capt and a green f/o it is a recipe for disaster.
D'ont worry it happens in all Airlines, I used to work for an airline where the had an incident with a super 80 runing off the end of a runway in MIA, same thing capt and thef/o went to sim together both did bad in the check, training dept. let them go through the cracks. Training capt put it down as a bad day, and poof!!Off the runway.The moral of the story it happens all over the world not only at 9e.Its called slip thrus
Later
D'ont worry it happens in all Airlines, I used to work for an airline where the had an incident with a super 80 runing off the end of a runway in MIA, same thing capt and thef/o went to sim together both did bad in the check, training dept. let them go through the cracks. Training capt put it down as a bad day, and poof!!Off the runway.The moral of the story it happens all over the world not only at 9e.Its called slip thrus
Later
Workin'Stiff
Fire in 'da hole!!!!
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2004
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- 775
CatYaaak
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 10, 2002
- Posts
- 809
sligo1 said:
Well, since you brought it up.....
So pilots bear no responsiblity (or "blame" in your book) for aerodynamically stalling a perfectly good aircraft because they think because it's certified to FL410 it's therefore is capable of doing it at any temp at any weight? Even when the book sitting right in the cockpit says they can't? I'm still utterly astounded at supposed professional pilots posting that they think this is the case ("it's certified to FL410 so there should be no problem")...and that there must be something insidious or at least a complicated chain of events that must be unraveled and show the crew bears no responsiblity. I find this lack of fundamental knowledge, and lack of it about their own aircraft and it's capabilities, quite scary, and I don't scare easily. That's as basic and basic can get, and it's not very smart to forget the basics or not look them up when you're flying a pig CRJ at the limit of it's altitude envelope, because even on it's best day it's not comfortable there.
If it were, it would be efficient, but there isn't a CRJ operator who routinely uses altitudes even in the high 30s except at the low weights and optimum ISA deviations on long segments for a good reason....because it ain't.
"121 standards" sounds all rosy, but besides a dutch roll demo at max altitude in the sim, regional training gives very little in the way of high altitude flight and performance, because very little cumulative time is spent at truly high altitudes or planned there. 121 standards are mostly about callouts and adhering to company SOPs designed to keep operations safely in the womb...the flying approaches etc. is the same as anywhere else.
35,000' isn't a "high altitude" unless you're straight out of a Gulfstream turboprop, but an extra mile or two of altitude above that is a different realm of flight in terms of performance and how quickly things can come unglued if you're struggling already and the temps go north or the ride goes south. Just as importantly, how the lack of performance degrades how easily you can recover. Experience gives you a healthy respect, and the reverse is also true. Anyone who thinks a CRJ performs "just fine" up there hasn't flown anything that actually does.
I remember the Hibbing accident, and had an interest because an aquaintance of mine was the new F/O flying with that idiot pr1ck-of-a "captain" who's incompetence and bad attitude combined with an overbearing command-style wound up killing everyone on board. There was plenty of glossing-over back then by many of the pilots, and in particular the union, in an effort to exonerate him and place responsiblity everywhere else despite his clear deviations from SOPs due to his lack of knowledge regarding his own aircraft's capabilities and modifications, and his obvious, well-known assholery when it came to not only CRM but cockpit atmosphere in general. Unfortunately, new inexperienced F/Os defer too much to this very type, and pay the price. Obviously, nothing was learned over the last decade and the culture remains unchanged. Judging from the list, it may have gotten worse.
Keep glossing over this one and pretend to yourselves and tell everyone else that pilots can't screw up the basics, and no doubt someone else in the future will be waggling around where they shouldn't be...purposely flying a perfectly good aircraft how it shouldn't be flown.... and also wind up taking a dirt nap.
Good luck. Nobody in my family will be riding on you.
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DoinTime
Well-known member
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- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 2,523
CatYaaak said:
Using your logic your family won't ever being flying anywhere. Nearly EVERY airline on this planet has had a tragic accident in their past attributed to human factors. Your singling out Pinnacle as a reckless carrier because we were the most current group to endure such a tragedy shows us all a lot about your character.
I hope I don't see your family on any of any of my upcoming flights. I would hate to have to break it to them that you are a complete idiot.
Rez O. Lewshun
Save the Profession
- Joined
- Jan 19, 2004
- Posts
- 13,422
If I were a Capt at 9E I'd mold the low time GIA types into quality FO's only to become Capts.
With guys having such low time, they are very impressionable and ready to learn. So, instead of turning them into bitter red headed step children, I'd get them up to speed. Treat them with respect and trust so they feel confident about doing there job and have some empathy when they make a mistake.
Sure it is more work, but I'd rather make this a better place for the pilot coming in behind me, cause that is what I'd want the guy ahead of me to do......
Get it?
With guys having such low time, they are very impressionable and ready to learn. So, instead of turning them into bitter red headed step children, I'd get them up to speed. Treat them with respect and trust so they feel confident about doing there job and have some empathy when they make a mistake.
Sure it is more work, but I'd rather make this a better place for the pilot coming in behind me, cause that is what I'd want the guy ahead of me to do......
Get it?
Workin'Stiff
Fire in 'da hole!!!!
- Joined
- Sep 10, 2004
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- 775
Rez O. Lewshun said:
That's great if you can indeed do that. However, your job as PIC onboard of a 121 operated flight is to operate that aircraft in a safe manner and get your pax and/or cargo to their destination, hopefully, efficiently and on-time. That does not turn you into an instructor to inform your SIC on rudimentary skills and experience-based knowledge. Unfortunately, with the low-time/inexperienced pilots being brought onboard, this is the extra burnden that is being placed on captains throughout selected airlines. Any way you want to slice it, this compromises safety. Clear and simple.
Rez Ow Lewshun ,well put, finally aguy who has been talking some sense.Where I came from the senior and"seasoned capts taught you well and showed you the ropes." Remember you one day will be the man/women at the helm, so f/o's have to learn how to take "contsructive critism" to better themselves.I always believe as well the "cocky" type will also one day kill themselves and the other 50+ on board with them. Just a thought. Later
DoinTime
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 2,523
Workin'Stiff said:
Regardless of hiring and training practices there will always be a disparity in relative experience, knowledge, or skill between crewmembers. If your not sharing everything you know with your fellow crewmembers you ain't worth a pinch of sh*t in my book.
If PIC's of 121 carriers insisted on having only fully experienced FO's in their right seats how would military pilots ever get into airline flying? How would anyone be able to fly a new type of aircraft?
CatYaaak
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 10, 2002
- Posts
- 809
DoinTime said:
That's not why I singled you out. Like I said, there doesn't seem to have been much of a change in culture there between Hibbing over a decade ago and the latest one. Hibbing should have been a major wake-up call, but apparently wasn't. Add to that the many nonsensicle statements regarding issues of the CRJ's performance posted here by many your pilots... again, I have been utterly astounded at times by the lack of fundamental knowledge some display about their own aircraft, and their absolute refusal to consider that saying it's "no big deal" to go mucking about in realm most of them have never been could be detrimental to anyone reading and erroneously believing it. If they'll do it here, no doubt they will confidently pass it along to others who they're flying with. Human factors? It doesn't even go that far. I'm talking about the most basic of things if you call yourself a professional pilot...knowing your own aircraft.
It's not even worth getting into the other list of things posted...those speak for themselves.
But most of what I've seen...and what is most troubling... is the attitude. It's one of denial continually and conveniently fed by either attacking anyone that suggests in the slightest that pilots have something to do with flying the airplane when bad things happen, or a childish overconfidence in an airplane I know from experience doesn't perform like they wish it did. When any attitude among peers is pervasive, it determines a groups' culture. The culture feeds and molds the next batch of newbies, and this is especially true when the newbies are not only new to the game but also the greenest of the green in the arena. Lack of objective, and sometimes Bitter Pill self-examination in a dangerous arena is stupid to the extreme, because continuous immature whitewashing when involved in a big-boy activities leads down the road to another tragedy. Grow up, and you just might save the next guy.
Read the NTSB report on Hibbing, and then read the pilots' group "finding" of the same event as voiced through the Union. The latter is basically a circling-of-wagons whitewash designed to protect a small-group, senior-member peer that if believed, negates the positive effects of enhancing safety, which NTSB investigations are designed to do in an objective manner. I won't be suprised if a similar kind of wild variance exists regarding the latest one. Given the lack of growing-up I had assumed had taken place over there but now it's clear has not, no doubt many will only believe exactly what they want to believe, just like then.
My character is fine. When I screw up, I admit it not only to reinforce the learning to myself, but to pass along "bad example" knowledge to others so they can perhaps avoid it. One thing for sure, nobody will ever plant and airplane due to me saying "it's no big deal". If things aren't a big deal, everyone does them, and with no ill effects. I can't help but wonder if some genius over there told the crew who unfortunately perished the same thing at one time or another.
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100LL... Again!
youwantapieceofme??
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2002
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- 1,533
AvroJockey
Go Pack Go!
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2003
- Posts
- 432
DoinTime said:
Actually, I take great pride in the fact that no XJ pilot has never crashed an airplane, so all can ride on us with confidence!
Most of these people are not singling out 9E for just one tragic event, they are singling you out for a tragic trend...
FL410 crash
Helena, Montana incident
Milwaukee accident
On top of countless other instances my 9E crashpad roomate has shared with me.
There are many good pilots at 9E, including personal friends of mine, but overall your pilot group seems particularly fallible. I would never put my family on a 9E flight, unless I personally knew the person at the stick.
DoinTime
Well-known member
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- Nov 27, 2001
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- 2,523
For your info the Association never proclaimed a "finding" of the accident. To do so would be ignorant. They performed no investigation. An "opinion" was presented as to why this accident may have happened though. This was done in an attempt to shed some light on issues such as why this captain chose to fly such a drastically nonstandard approach and the lack of standard phraseology required by the company. Believe it or not no aircraft accident has ever happened in a vacuum and there are host insidious factors that play a large roll in the outcome. The NTSB rarely highlights these small factors though. The Association took it upon themselves to question why line standards were not well trained or enforced and why an aircraft such as the BAE-31 was even operated in an environment that it was so unsuited.
As for the comment on growing up...please. There are no more than 60 employees still at this airline from back then. I know most of these guys pretty well and none of them exhibit the oh so trademark of a juvenile that you, Yak, have mastered, the art of pretending to have all the answers. Anyone who thinks they have a good idea of the goings on (let alone the culture) at a given airline based on the readings of this, or any, message board is an idiot. This is certifiable.
The_Russian
Low Level Pilot
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- Sep 3, 2003
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- 2,574
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