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Pinnacle Airlines
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pipejockey
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I have just read this thread from the start. Interesting comments from some. I think some have differing opinions as to what constitutes PFT. I feel Colgan is the only true PFT out there right now...They make you pay them 18000 to be hired and given training that should be considered a company expense and be provided for.
I had the oppurtunity to take Regional Airline Academy's ATC course but declined when I found out the airline they were placing students with was Colgan and was PFT. I fully oppose PFT of that sort and would rather show the airlines that they can't get pilots to agree to that sort of thing, unfortunately many do.
I agree with AEWANABE about GIA students taking what should be a viable FO position and instead of paying a salary they collect revenue from you (I know they pay 8 an hour but not the 15 or so they'd have to if hiring for the position). I wont attend GIA either because of that.
I was annoyed with some who used the term "Bridge Program" and seemed to throw those students in with PFTers as well. I attended a flight school with one of those bridge programs...we were not PFTers!! we paid a flight school not the airline. The school provided airline type training from day one...proper use of checklists, call-outs, airline type ground classes taught by airline pilots. Some regional airlines had horrendous wash-out rates for new hires, 45% at some I hear (obviously pre 9/11, the quality now i'm sure is better with the furloughs out there) and these schools would bring airline management in and show them the program and encourage them to try out some of these students. My flight school had 2 very large regional airlines interview the students and hire them. They were very pleased. One of those airlines hired over 100 students and NO ONE washed out! The other also hired well over a hundred with a few wash-outs, a lot better % than 45 huh?
So to say that program was PFT is insulting. All those 2 airlines did was grant succesful students an interview, and if the interview was succesful, a first officer positon to someone they could count on getting thru training.
Some of the brightest and best pilots out there were former flight instructors, but for those of you who say being a CFI is the only viable and acceptable way to an airline position are wrong. most of the new-hires at the regionals are flight instructors with 1,500 to 2000 hours plus. And since only a 4 or 5 out of the 200 plus students that were hired from the school I attended washed out during training, were did that 45% wash-out rate come from? The 2000 hour flight instructors. By the way, we were hired with 400 hours. Again, I have no ill-will for flight instructors, but the comments on this thread are quite hard on bridge program students, saying we have no business flying FO for part 121. The wash-out rates speak for themselves.
I just think the airline type training we received prepared us for airline new-hire training better than sitting right seat in a cessna or piper for 1 or 2 thousand hours. I got my private from a little airport in farmland surrounded by cornfields, my instructor had a few thousand hours all 172 182 210 time, but how is that to prepare you for high density airspace operations in a highly complex aircraft at speeds they have never experienced before into ewr, jfk, lga, lax.....you get the idea.
I had the oppurtunity to take Regional Airline Academy's ATC course but declined when I found out the airline they were placing students with was Colgan and was PFT. I fully oppose PFT of that sort and would rather show the airlines that they can't get pilots to agree to that sort of thing, unfortunately many do.
I agree with AEWANABE about GIA students taking what should be a viable FO position and instead of paying a salary they collect revenue from you (I know they pay 8 an hour but not the 15 or so they'd have to if hiring for the position). I wont attend GIA either because of that.
I was annoyed with some who used the term "Bridge Program" and seemed to throw those students in with PFTers as well. I attended a flight school with one of those bridge programs...we were not PFTers!! we paid a flight school not the airline. The school provided airline type training from day one...proper use of checklists, call-outs, airline type ground classes taught by airline pilots. Some regional airlines had horrendous wash-out rates for new hires, 45% at some I hear (obviously pre 9/11, the quality now i'm sure is better with the furloughs out there) and these schools would bring airline management in and show them the program and encourage them to try out some of these students. My flight school had 2 very large regional airlines interview the students and hire them. They were very pleased. One of those airlines hired over 100 students and NO ONE washed out! The other also hired well over a hundred with a few wash-outs, a lot better % than 45 huh?
So to say that program was PFT is insulting. All those 2 airlines did was grant succesful students an interview, and if the interview was succesful, a first officer positon to someone they could count on getting thru training.
Some of the brightest and best pilots out there were former flight instructors, but for those of you who say being a CFI is the only viable and acceptable way to an airline position are wrong. most of the new-hires at the regionals are flight instructors with 1,500 to 2000 hours plus. And since only a 4 or 5 out of the 200 plus students that were hired from the school I attended washed out during training, were did that 45% wash-out rate come from? The 2000 hour flight instructors. By the way, we were hired with 400 hours. Again, I have no ill-will for flight instructors, but the comments on this thread are quite hard on bridge program students, saying we have no business flying FO for part 121. The wash-out rates speak for themselves.
I just think the airline type training we received prepared us for airline new-hire training better than sitting right seat in a cessna or piper for 1 or 2 thousand hours. I got my private from a little airport in farmland surrounded by cornfields, my instructor had a few thousand hours all 172 182 210 time, but how is that to prepare you for high density airspace operations in a highly complex aircraft at speeds they have never experienced before into ewr, jfk, lga, lax.....you get the idea.
1.3XVso
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2003
- Posts
- 679
Hey all i have to say that its a training ambient so what if I pay the airline to sit on the right seat i'm just getting the expierience for future 121 groundschool plus the turbine time. Just like the dude said what just because your a CFI or go that route your the king of sky or something? I'm doing the same thing i did since my pvt. I paid to learn ect. I'm still a student so whats the F*** is the big F****** deal! Im sick of it. If you don't agree with it fine no prob i don't agree with many things in life but what the hell. Just stop acting like a bunch of queers and act like real pilots huh.
taloft said:
Perhaps if you spent some time in the real world, you'd realize how cocky and arrogant YOU sound.
As a 800 hour RJ FO with no ATP and no Degree, I feel cheapened to think that I may have to one day spend a trip with you in the flight deck. You've gotta be a stone drag....
You know what dude? The reason you haven't gotten an interview is probaly due to that "holier than thou" attitude!
All you bashers of PFT like to stereotype everyone. You want to believe that Mommy and Daddy paid my way through life. And that I am a mediocre pilot that captains hate to fly with because I have low time. You just keep going on through life believing that. If it makes you feel better to think that you are that superior to me go ahead, I don't care.
As much as you want to deny it, I worked my a s s off in my short lifetime to get where I am. I had a goal and went for it with the means that my peers reccomended. You think that I am going to go back and say that I made a mistake?! Hell no! A long line of descisons and reccomendations by people I respect put me where I am now.
Everyone likes to pick on Gulfstream because we are an easy target. You are pretty much assured that any person with GIA on thier resume PFT'ed at some point. I don't see some of you rooting out the people who PFT'ed at other regionals! Because you're a bunch of hyppocrites.
Let me ask you a question, If you went to an interview at Comair, or ASA, and the interviewer was a PFT'er, and you were offered you a job, would you reject it? I highly doubt it. If you honest to god would, that is good for you. But it's the two-faced bastards that haunt theese boards that are all piss and vinegar, but in a crew room are silent as a church mouse.
I hate to piss you guys off, but I have never recieved a disparaging comment from anyone outside of theese boards due to the fact I was from Gulfstream. So if there really is THIS much hatrid for me, please let me know. Because so far all the personal attacks I have recieved on message boards havent materialized to jack squat in real life.
So if you have issues with me or any of my colleagues, grow a pair and say something.
jstanotherpilot
Well-known member
- Joined
- Oct 15, 2003
- Posts
- 60
Who cares. Thought it was all about seniority. If you don't do what it takes to get that seniority number as fast as you can you end up at the back of the line. Just like mainline guys bashing regionals for having a job that we didn't create. Their managements created it not us. If we don't fly we don't eat. These guys that paid probably wouldn't have a job if they didn't do what was required to get it now and not ten years down the road. They didn't create the environment, management did. If they didn't take the job they would be at the back of the line. I paid for training as well. I paid an instructor part 61 for the training for all my tickets. I bought wrecked airplanes rebuilt them flew them and sold them to pay for the fuel to build my time. I got my first flying job without anything more than a private pilot and an A&P to get my FE ticket. Didn't even have a GED at that time. Paid more of that earned money to finish the licenses... (More PFT) upgraded and moved on. Paid paid paid and paid more for training. These guys didn't create their environment. Sure they didn't want it this way but if they didn't take the job somebody was going to take it no matter what even if management had to start a flight school. Oh wait a few of them did that and kind of fed the other managements need for those low paid pilots. Guess there was no way out of it huh. When has any pilots really had any control over management except when walking out on them in a strike and forcing managements position to go extinct since there was no airline to survive in the short term.
Leave em alone. Geez. Go to work to your job, get your paycheck and go home.
And if you speak of my grammar your just a little p u 5 5 y a55 sh1t bird.
Can't wait to see what kind of mean nasty thing is said to me to try and hurt my feelings... Oh thats right... I have none. Would be nice to see if others agree though. Would be just terrible if they don't. Oh my...
Leave em alone. Geez. Go to work to your job, get your paycheck and go home.
And if you speak of my grammar your just a little p u 5 5 y a55 sh1t bird.
Can't wait to see what kind of mean nasty thing is said to me to try and hurt my feelings... Oh thats right... I have none. Would be nice to see if others agree though. Would be just terrible if they don't. Oh my...
Last edited:
dondk
Don't you wish
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 887
I've been around regionals for a few years now... I have seen the PFT, the Bridge, and variations of both at the 3 airlines I have been employed with.
The one thing that stands out the most is...
Many dudes beat up the lower time people who utilized those various routes to a right seat. Eventually (with time) those lower time people become a bit bitter and angry and most of all resentfull. Then the day comes and they either upgrade (and hold a sweet seniority) or finally move up the ranks to be some of the senior FO's in the company. That is when the fun begins... the payback is usually severe and the junior guys who ragged on them for a long time finally get paid back.
My ONLY issue with the whole PFT/Bridge/Variation theme is...
Most of these people are good sticks, some think they are the Chuck Yeager or something. I have seen many "lower" time pilots walk into crew rooms thinking they were the $hit because they were in a jet at 300 hours when I was still in a prop at over 1500 hours.
The attitude it the biggest distractor in this scheme. T-Gates has a great attitude, but others do not. Pipejockey as an example (albeit poor) his Current Position: Should be EMB Captain
while it "MAY" be a joke can be viewed as either offensive or the attitude I describe above.
Just because you may have paid, did a brige and got some "airline training" or some other variation does NOT mean you are better or more qualified than a guy who sat in a 152 burning holes inthe sky while and not gettig killed by some adventorous student. Experience cannot be taught, it must be learned and a classroom is usually not the place that it can be learned.
BTW.. Mesa was my first Airline with MAPD and San Juaner's, Piedmont was next with UND, and finally Pinnacle with Gulfstream...
The one thing that stands out the most is...
Many dudes beat up the lower time people who utilized those various routes to a right seat. Eventually (with time) those lower time people become a bit bitter and angry and most of all resentfull. Then the day comes and they either upgrade (and hold a sweet seniority) or finally move up the ranks to be some of the senior FO's in the company. That is when the fun begins... the payback is usually severe and the junior guys who ragged on them for a long time finally get paid back.
My ONLY issue with the whole PFT/Bridge/Variation theme is...
Most of these people are good sticks, some think they are the Chuck Yeager or something. I have seen many "lower" time pilots walk into crew rooms thinking they were the $hit because they were in a jet at 300 hours when I was still in a prop at over 1500 hours.
The attitude it the biggest distractor in this scheme. T-Gates has a great attitude, but others do not. Pipejockey as an example (albeit poor) his Current Position: Should be EMB Captain
while it "MAY" be a joke can be viewed as either offensive or the attitude I describe above.
Just because you may have paid, did a brige and got some "airline training" or some other variation does NOT mean you are better or more qualified than a guy who sat in a 152 burning holes inthe sky while and not gettig killed by some adventorous student. Experience cannot be taught, it must be learned and a classroom is usually not the place that it can be learned.
BTW.. Mesa was my first Airline with MAPD and San Juaner's, Piedmont was next with UND, and finally Pinnacle with Gulfstream...
pipejockey
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2003
- Posts
- 1,041
dondk,
Your way off base about me. I have absolutely NO attitude and actually feel I'm living proof that if I can get hired by a Regional airline, ANYONE can! Keep in mind I said hired, I'm not currently flying. I am no better than anyone else and all I was merely doing in my last post was defending the viability of bridge programs. I had read some other posts from people who grouped bridge program students in with PFTers. They are completely different, PFT I strongly oppose. You should not have to pay an airline to hire you, what other industry can you think of that gets away with that? The airlines get away with it because they know pilots out there will sell their souls to fly a jet for 20 grand. I would rather work in another industry but be able to look in the mirror and sleep at night knowing I didnt sell out than to have my dream job of flying a jet, just my principles I guess.
I stated some of the brightest pilots are former flight instructors, how can you construe what I said as perhaps having the holier than though attitude some have. The wash-out rates are a known fact and I strongly feel the bridge programs are the best way to an airline job for a civilian, at least for me it was, as the structured and rigid training prepares you best I feel. But both routes are certainly viable, Bridge and Instructing. Unfortunately almost all bridge programs today incorporate instructing as part of the program, ala Pan Am, and I think Flight Safety as well. My flight school didnt require instructing, but that was pre 9/11 and 400 hour new hires that had a proven track record of not washing out were justified. Airlines cant justify hiring 400 hour pilots anymore thus the instructing to get to 800 or so. I believe only RAA, Tab, and Riddles new CAPT program do not require it. And the only Airline to hire Tab and RAA grads right now is Colgan which I refuse to do because of the PFT, and I dont think anyone has completed Riddles new program yet.
And I do think a 152 pilot burning holes in the sky for 1500 hours is just as qualified, because after IOE we are all on the same level for the most part. I think it is beneficial to have a wide range of pilots flying the line who have had different kinds of backgrounds and qualities to bring to the flight deck. I do think the 152 pilot will have to work that much harder though, to get thru training if he hadnt been exposed to complex sytems. Hydraulic, fuel, electrical, master warning systems can all be quite complicated for the uninitiated, at least for me it was....I can admit it. So I respect the instructors, thats the bottom line.
You called me out on my current position, so I will respond. I think I'll change it though, because in the short time ive been posting on this board your the second guy to comment about it. I dont know if its to try to ridicule me or not but anyway....I was hired by a regional airline on 9/7/2001 from the bridge program I attended and upgrade time was running 2 years, it's as simple as that. They furloughed so i never got my chance with them. Sometimes you just have to take things at face value.
Since you called me out on my current position I hope you dont mind if I ask why so many lateral moves for you...Mesa then Piedmont, then Pinnacle? Not to criticize just curious.
Your way off base about me. I have absolutely NO attitude and actually feel I'm living proof that if I can get hired by a Regional airline, ANYONE can! Keep in mind I said hired, I'm not currently flying. I am no better than anyone else and all I was merely doing in my last post was defending the viability of bridge programs. I had read some other posts from people who grouped bridge program students in with PFTers. They are completely different, PFT I strongly oppose. You should not have to pay an airline to hire you, what other industry can you think of that gets away with that? The airlines get away with it because they know pilots out there will sell their souls to fly a jet for 20 grand. I would rather work in another industry but be able to look in the mirror and sleep at night knowing I didnt sell out than to have my dream job of flying a jet, just my principles I guess.
I stated some of the brightest pilots are former flight instructors, how can you construe what I said as perhaps having the holier than though attitude some have. The wash-out rates are a known fact and I strongly feel the bridge programs are the best way to an airline job for a civilian, at least for me it was, as the structured and rigid training prepares you best I feel. But both routes are certainly viable, Bridge and Instructing. Unfortunately almost all bridge programs today incorporate instructing as part of the program, ala Pan Am, and I think Flight Safety as well. My flight school didnt require instructing, but that was pre 9/11 and 400 hour new hires that had a proven track record of not washing out were justified. Airlines cant justify hiring 400 hour pilots anymore thus the instructing to get to 800 or so. I believe only RAA, Tab, and Riddles new CAPT program do not require it. And the only Airline to hire Tab and RAA grads right now is Colgan which I refuse to do because of the PFT, and I dont think anyone has completed Riddles new program yet.
And I do think a 152 pilot burning holes in the sky for 1500 hours is just as qualified, because after IOE we are all on the same level for the most part. I think it is beneficial to have a wide range of pilots flying the line who have had different kinds of backgrounds and qualities to bring to the flight deck. I do think the 152 pilot will have to work that much harder though, to get thru training if he hadnt been exposed to complex sytems. Hydraulic, fuel, electrical, master warning systems can all be quite complicated for the uninitiated, at least for me it was....I can admit it. So I respect the instructors, thats the bottom line.
You called me out on my current position, so I will respond. I think I'll change it though, because in the short time ive been posting on this board your the second guy to comment about it. I dont know if its to try to ridicule me or not but anyway....I was hired by a regional airline on 9/7/2001 from the bridge program I attended and upgrade time was running 2 years, it's as simple as that. They furloughed so i never got my chance with them. Sometimes you just have to take things at face value.
Since you called me out on my current position I hope you dont mind if I ask why so many lateral moves for you...Mesa then Piedmont, then Pinnacle? Not to criticize just curious.
dondk
Don't you wish
- Joined
- Nov 25, 2001
- Posts
- 887
Pipejockey...
Thanks for clarifing your position. I meant no harm honestly, and I may have misunderstood your postion.. I am not calling you out on your current position or ridiculing you.. I have run across way too many people who "think" they are destined to glory without even trying to "earn" it..
Lateral moves... Mesa.. I saw little to no future.. I was the senior FO in a base and the best I could hold was 10 days off with 70 hours.. Not much of a life while holding senority.. I was anxious to move on, but in '01 the company changed the upgrade policy, basically locking me out for an additonal period of time (mesa and ROA may explain why).
I jumped ship to PDT (a great company) the pay was better a 25% increase (to start) and a contract that was the best in the industry at the time. Shortly thereafter I read the writing on the wall and was offered a jet postion with a up and coming company.. I am not overly proud of my jumping although I will hold the left seat soon and all the while I have decent seniority. Much more than my counterparts still at Mesa and unfortunatley PDT.
In hindsight it really is all about that seniority number, I never did the PFT or bridge or a variation of it. I have worked my way up and I am proud that I have. I do slightly resent the people that just buy a seniorty number and really resent those who "think" they are better than me because they have less than 1000 hours and are in a regional already. There is something to be said about "paying dues". I have heard that countless times while jumpseating.
As for bridge programs.. what did one really learn in a bridge program? I have been through 3 different Indoc's and system classes... I am sorry to say that I do not see what a bridge program would have done for me.
I wil also add that at the 3 companies I have been with, we did have a washout rate, albeit not 45% (although PCL did have a brief 75% failure rate for a period of time). A person who applies his or herself will pass the ground schools without a bridge program telling them what is right or wrong. All I see some of these programs doing is milking the unsuspecting student for a little more money to give them that warm and fuzzy feeling..
Learning airline procedures is not rocket science, if it was most of us would be unemployed. It is about learning to work as a team and to follow some basic and simple procedures. To pay an institution for this is just wrong, it is "almost" like PFT..
Once again I am sorry I offended you, I was mearly stating a postion and thought you may have been one of the "holier than thou's"
Thanks for clarifing your position. I meant no harm honestly, and I may have misunderstood your postion.. I am not calling you out on your current position or ridiculing you.. I have run across way too many people who "think" they are destined to glory without even trying to "earn" it..
Lateral moves... Mesa.. I saw little to no future.. I was the senior FO in a base and the best I could hold was 10 days off with 70 hours.. Not much of a life while holding senority.. I was anxious to move on, but in '01 the company changed the upgrade policy, basically locking me out for an additonal period of time (mesa and ROA may explain why).
I jumped ship to PDT (a great company) the pay was better a 25% increase (to start) and a contract that was the best in the industry at the time. Shortly thereafter I read the writing on the wall and was offered a jet postion with a up and coming company.. I am not overly proud of my jumping although I will hold the left seat soon and all the while I have decent seniority. Much more than my counterparts still at Mesa and unfortunatley PDT.
In hindsight it really is all about that seniority number, I never did the PFT or bridge or a variation of it. I have worked my way up and I am proud that I have. I do slightly resent the people that just buy a seniorty number and really resent those who "think" they are better than me because they have less than 1000 hours and are in a regional already. There is something to be said about "paying dues". I have heard that countless times while jumpseating.
As for bridge programs.. what did one really learn in a bridge program? I have been through 3 different Indoc's and system classes... I am sorry to say that I do not see what a bridge program would have done for me.
I wil also add that at the 3 companies I have been with, we did have a washout rate, albeit not 45% (although PCL did have a brief 75% failure rate for a period of time). A person who applies his or herself will pass the ground schools without a bridge program telling them what is right or wrong. All I see some of these programs doing is milking the unsuspecting student for a little more money to give them that warm and fuzzy feeling..
Learning airline procedures is not rocket science, if it was most of us would be unemployed. It is about learning to work as a team and to follow some basic and simple procedures. To pay an institution for this is just wrong, it is "almost" like PFT..
Once again I am sorry I offended you, I was mearly stating a postion and thought you may have been one of the "holier than thou's"
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