Pinnacle aircraft orders with NW

[Lear70]

Hey Lear 70, in the prospectus, it says we cannot go below 129, not 79. Were did I miss this?

Well... maybe I misread it...? "Never happened before." *snicker*

I thought I had read that the initial deliveries and minimum Pinnacle operating level was at 79 aircraft, and would not be reduced below this level, but was planned to be at 129 by the middle of 2005.

I remember thinking when I read it that the legal mumbo jumbo basically hinted that they could reduce us if they wanted, just not below 79... Now I'll have to go re-read it when I'm up on reserve to make sure I read it right, thanks a loT blade!

Have fun out there man! We should all get together for a reunion evening at The Landing Strip when Larry, Dirk, Pat, Tareq and all of us get off reserve after three years! WOOHOO!!

 

[flyn96]

Dude you guys need a f -ing wake up call!

9E Get all the jets -- You need to take a drug test

9E Get all the new ones then transfer old ones to XJ -- again piss in a cup and also who the f %k you think you are some golden child that will only be allowed to fly new planes, get the f$%k over it.

Also just so NEWSOUTH can drop it we got our printed copies of the contract last week in the mail.

Peace out B iatches!!!!!

 

[Mel Sharples]

9E Get all the jets -- You need to take a drug test

9E Get all the new ones then transfer old ones to XJ

Wow... how the hell do you find time to fly in between your "English as a Second Language" classes???

"See pilot. See pilot complain. Complain, pilot, complain! Pilot feel better. One day he speak real good like."

I'm not defending or endorsing the "Mesaba will get the old jets" idea, but I think you may need to lay off the drugs. At least until you can talk in complete sentances!

 

[Lear70]

D*mn Mel, do you need an intervention? Seriously, you're in rare form tonight, but I love sarcasm, so keep 'em coming!

Flyn96, the VAST MAJORITY of our pilots DO NOT believe that we will get ALL the next CRJ deliveries. Most of our pilots believe that we will probably get the next 30, simply because Mesaba will not be able to gear up a CRJ training program by late Fall plus get FAA approval, plus get proving runs, etc to put the aircraft in place to provide seamless deliveries and NW BADLY wants to kep the CRJ flow to continue.

Because of that, most of us believe the next 30 will come to us. After that, most of us believe MESABA will get them, with the carrot dangling that you guys had during your negotitations now pointed directly at us. What we at PCL have to remember is that IT'S NOT US AGAINST MESABA! It's us against Northwest. We have to support each other, just like we did last year when our pilots walked your picket lines.

THIS ISN'T A FIGHT ABOUT MESABA VERSUS PINNACLE! It's a fight against whipsaw tactics at any regional airline that flies codeshare for a major carrier. We're all professional pilots. Some of us hang out with each other (Mesaba and PCL pilots) and respect and like each other outside the workplace. Let that camaraderie continue, realize that we're all in this together, and keep the bar on the upswing!

It's going to take a lot together, but we need to STICK TOGETHER in all of this. Don't let this degenerate into "us versus them" , let's be the professionals, do our job, and go home and enjoy our families! Isn't that why we got into this career? Do what we love to enjoy our family time?

 

[sf3boy]

There was never any carrot for Mesaba management to put out there in negotiations. There is nothing at Mesaba but 65 props and 35 jets. That is all they told us we would ever have after the contract talks were over. NWA will give 9E a carrot though: "Mesaba will get planes if you don't_________ ".(fill in the space with a concession)

 

[DoinTime]

"Mesaba will get planes if you don't_________ ".(fill in the space with a concession)

Minimum wage laws will prohibit any concessions at 9E.

 

[Lear70]

There was never any carrot for Mesaba management to put out there in negotiations.

How about, "4 Avros will go away in December, and we're going to threaten you with losing ALL your Avros in the near future and leaving you with NO jets, just as you put your T.A. to a vote..."

Naaahhhh, that COULDN'T be a carrot, could it?

p.s. DoinTime, didn't you hear? The Michigan Labor Board has just chosen David White as their primary labor consultant. Seems too many single mothers with kids were getting food stamps and unemployment checks every month and they had to cut back on that aid... those kids really didn't need to eat anyway. So much for getting any government assistance!

 

[sf3boy]

You know, when they announced that the first 5 Avros were going to be parked, followed by the rest, that is what people thought too. At first.

At the time, we were still over 2 months away from a TA. With all the Avros leaving, that would mean that everyone hired after January 1999 would be furloughed. The FO's realized that they should definately hold out for a quality contract since they were going to lose their jobs regardless. They company with that announcement, gave the FO's no incentive to settle for a low ball contract. Everyone at the company knew that after a TA was signed, there would be an announcement that the Avros would stay. NWA fought their pilots way too hard to give up a 69 seat airplane crewed by minimum wage workers. It took 2 days for that announcement.

So, I will say again that there was no carrot for the Mesaba pilots. There was a poorly thought out scheme by NWA to try to scare the pilot group, but that wasn't the reason the TA passed. There are many other reasons for that.

 

[Lear70]

So, I will say again that there was no carrot for the Mesaba pilots. There was a poorly thought out scheme by NWA to try to scare the pilot group, but that wasn't the reason the TA passed. There are many other reasons for that.

I still don't buy it. I was at the Mesaba roadshow in DTW for the entire evening and talked to some friends over there afterwards as well as having a few words with Wychor. The sentiment I got was that everyone was just too scared to push for more. That it was "liveable", and "just not worth the risk to really get an industry-leading contract". Those are actual quotes both from Wychor and others by the way.

So what other reasons are there that you had such a marginably passing vote on that T.A. that gave a "nearly industry-leading" contract to the Saab pilots, and an "industry average" contract for the Avro pilots, when the Avros have been planned all along to start going away in 2006 (just two years after D.O.S.)?

 

[sf3boy]

Well, in my mind, noone was really scared about the Avros leaving. As you said, they are leaving anyway in 2007. That is when the contract for service to NWA is up, according to John Spanjers, the president. There were many reasons this contract passed. It has decent scope and retirement and a few schedule enhancements. The pay for the Saab is out f#*%ing standing and there were many pilots who simply did not believe a strike would occur, thus planning their finances accordingly.

John Spanjers said in a road show, back when they actually talked to employees, that the Saab service contract with NWA is up in 2006. So, Mesaba has the highest paid Saab drivers in the world, but yet the claimed for 3 years of contract talks that they were broke. Why would management pay 65% percent of their pilots more than any other airline on the same equipment? Why would the pay on everything that has "jet" written beside it be so pathetic? I don't think that Mesaba plans on flying Saabs for long. That is just my guess, though. It's too bad. I kind of like being the only prop operator at every single airport we go to.

 

[Mel Sharples]

The pay for the Saab is out f#*%ing standing

That is why I think the Mesaba contract doesn't suck. It is not a "we rolled over" kind of contract, either. Could the Mesaba pilots have gotten more? Maybe. Hard to say knowing the mentality of the NWA group. Mesaba pilots probably could have gotten more but it may not have been much and it would have come at some cost. In the end, we will never know.

But we do know that Mesaba Saab pilots do make more than anyone else flying the Saab. That's not saying much, I know. However it is tough to get industry leading CRJ rates when you don't have any on the property and who knows when they will arrive.

I do disagree that there were no "carrots" for the Mesaba group. The Avros going away did spook many especially those at the top, and the Big Sky issue was huge. I don't doubt that NWA/Pinnacle will try some of the same tactics. CRJ orders in doubt, some go away, new airline under the holding company, etc.

So with that said, Mesaba may have done better but I say again it was not a sell-out contract.

I hope Pinnacle pilots have the same luck to at least make big gains overall -- scope, trip guarantee, some increased pay, etc. Two things for Pinnacle pilots to remember: there is almost always a way around scope, and in this day and age just because you have it in the contract now doesn't guarantee it will stay. I can just hear "Well, yeah... you guys can have more pay but we want you to relax the scope. Of course, we will just form a new Pinnacle Holdings company anyway and spin off Summit Airlines. Ha!" (I may be wrong but I think the Pinnacle scope only protects the pilots under Pinnacle Airlines. Nothing says they couldn't form a holding company above that.)

In any event, good luck to the Pinnacle and ExpressJet pilots! Give 'em hell!

 

[JJJ]

The Saab pay, for the FO's at least, is the result of selling out the Avro FO's. The union promised that there would be seperate FO pay scales

Check out the difference between Comair 70 FO rates, and Mesaba Avro rates. Second year is about a $14/hr difference.

 

[Mel Sharples]

The Saab pay, for the FO's at least, is the result of selling out the Avro FO's. The union promised that there would be seperate FO pay scales

Check out the difference between Comair 70 FO rates, and Mesaba Avro rates. Second year is about a $14/hr difference.

It's all relative, I guess. The majority of F/O's fly the Saab. Split rates would have given the Avro F/O's a lot more but the Saab guys a lot less. Since Mesaba has mostly Saabs and they aren't going away soon (and there was a threat the Avros were) it wasn't a bad deal. They also would have needed the company to agree to allow F/O's to bid anywhere. It sounds like Mesaba management was going to go down swinging on the F/O seat lock. Should the union have gone down swinging to get it? I guess that is a matter of opinion.

I'm not saying it was ideal. By the same token, I wouldn't say it is bad or that anyone "sold out" anyone else. It was probably the best they could do under the circumstances.

Just my $.02 worth.

 

[sf3boy]

You are always going to have a specific portion of the pilot group pissed off. The union did say that a split rate was the objective. I guess that was traded away for something else. And remember, Avro FO's are the fewest in number.......And yes, Avro FO pay is absolutely atrocious. Hell, the pay is the same for a Metro and an Avro for the FO. It did not take the MEC long to figure out who the important pilot group is and who is not.

 

[Lear70]

and there were many pilots who simply did not believe a strike would occur, thus planning their finances accordingly.

That is my biggest fear of why, if for any reason, something gets passed here that is considered "concessionary". We're begging and pleading for people to start a strike fund, but I don't know how many people actually are.

Tell you what, if we pass something that really sucks by a slim margin and I hear someone I fly with say they voted "Yes" to it because they couldn't afford a strike, it'll be a long month of him or her doing nothing but running the radios and the gear...

Why would the pay on everything that has "jet" written beside it be so pathetic? I don't think that Mesaba plans on flying Saabs for long.

And that's why so many of us believe that it was the wrong decision for you. If, in 2 - 3 years, the Saabs DO go away, and you guys have a bunch of CRJ's (which is very likely), and your rates are on the bottom 1/3 of industry CRJ pay, you might look back on this and think differently about the decision.

Then again, you might not - like everyone's said, it's all relative.

 

[sf3boy]

I couldn't agree more with everything you said. I was able to save up enough for four months worth of striking. I leaned everything out as much as I could. Others maybe had different priorities.

And mark my words, the Saabs are not going to be here for long. NWA does not want to be known as the airline that uses props when everyone else uses jets.

 

[flap operator]

I voted YES to strike. I voted NO on our TA and I was prepared to strike in all aspects, except financially. There was no way I could have saved for a strike when my expenses are greater than my income. It's hard to save something you don't have right? But I was still willing to make that ultimate sacrifice.

BTW, I'm one of those avro FOs who was sacrificed for the rest of the pilot group. I know, I know 2/3 of the pilots are saab drivers. It makes sense... but it's still awful to be receiving the short end of the stick. With no upgrade in sight, no financial incentive to switch equipment (and who would with a freaking 2 year seat lock after already being seatlocked for 3) I can just sit back and endure the next 5+ years. Granted there are nice gains in our contract... but not enough for me to be 100% happy. Hence the proud NO vote.


FO

 

[Mel Sharples]

BTW, I'm one of those avro FOs who was sacrificed for the rest of the pilot group. I know, I know 2/3 of the pilots are saab drivers. It makes sense.

I agree with what you are saying. It should have been split but it only would have worked if you were allowed to bid F/O position on seniority. To have a split pay rate with seat locks would have been the most unfair of all.

But in the end, I share your pain. . .