Pilots will become irrelevant in the US domestic market

[kf4amu]

Wrong. If it's a jet it needs to be mainline. Let the kiddos play with the T-props.

What about turboprops that are bigger than jets?

 

[Speedtape]

The flying will go where it can be done the cheapest. I doubt much will change, except that more flying will be done by regional airlines.

 

[wms]

Spoken like a true IDIOT. The 50 seat jets don't make money they dont make money GET IT???? They are a jet, you need a turboprop. As far getting 100 seaters...DC9-10, Fokker 100 etc were around long before you little boy. We ARE going to get 71+ seaters on the mainline property you little snot too bad. Enjoy your regional lifestyle.

Nothing's making money. Least of all 100+-seat ML aircraft with 50-70 seats sold. Forcing mgmt to put large aircraft on every route doesn't force pax to by tickets.

 

[wms]

Would you fly an RJ at ML at regional wages? What about benefits?

Then you could move up FROM RJs instead of TO RJs within the same company. It's all moot anyway because mgmts and ALPA do not want to remove the wedge from between the regionals and ML.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Then you could move up FROM RJs instead of TO RJs within the same company.

Correct.

The point is, if ML ends up flying RJs it is not going to be done in one event. It will take time, in addition, the unions will get slammed not for getting RJs at ML but for not getting $100/hr for junior CAs on day one.

It's all moot anyway because mgmts and ALPA do not want to remove the wedge from between the regionals and ML.

Don't defeat yourself before you've begun to take action......

It is not that ALPA wants the wedge in my opinion. Sure hindsight is clear and ALPA should have done it differently. But outsourcing is the American Way. Pilots who complain on this board about being outsourced will readily take their wages to another industry and patronize outsourcing.

So you really expect a 55,000 member union to stop or change direction of the tsunami of market forces? Now, if the APA, IPA, SAWAP and USAPA and ALPA were on the same team it would be easier. MUCH easier.

Regardless, it is not moot. Fights on. Are you in?

 

[CFI2766]

Correct.

The point is, if ML ends up flying RJs it is not going to be done in one event. It will take time, in addition, the unions will get slammed not for getting RJs at ML but for not getting $100/hr for junior CAs on day one.


Don't defeat yourself before you've begun to take action......



Two contradictory points here. I like your second much better than your first.

ALPA, or any other airline union or association, wouldn't get slammed by it's members for not getting $100 an hour for CAs on day one. The vast majority of those already at the ML won't care what the starting RJ wages are as long as their own wages grow, or are at the very least not affected by the RJ wages.

I could very well see a scenario where the mainline 'partner' calculates a low, non-negotiable wage scale and benefit package that allows the mainline partner to bring RJs on to the mainline list. Included in this TA will be benefits to the existing seniority list, that while nice, wont destroy the profitability logic of the agreement.

The management of 'today' at the mainline partner will lower the wage costs of that ML for that quarter, and, for the life of the agreement. (Anything possibly negotiated beyond that won't be the current management's problem.) The existing ML seniority group will get a nice little bonus for the agreement.

This scenario will work because the vast majority of college educated FO's and junior Captains at all of the regionals see the regional as a stepping stone to better, if not necessarily bigger, things in the future of their careers. Starting at the intended goal of being on a ML list will override the fact that it will be for lower compensation that what is available at the regional.

Those who would lose the most under this scenario are those who have invested time at the regional level, either in the past or in plans for the future of their careers. It would be ugly to start over at the bottom of the ML list for the senior lifers at the existing regionals. Less pay, vacation, and longevity (all of these things that management would want) for the same work will be the color of this possible new reality.

 

[CFI2766]

The flying will go where it can be done the cheapest. I doubt much will change, except that more flying will be done by regional airlines.

IF the assumption that the flying can be done cheapest at the regional level is correct, this makes sense.

History has shown this to be the case, but it doesn't necessarily have to be way things shake out in the future.

I agree with what I think you point is here: Market forces are far stronger than the wants of the labor groups.

 

[Poahi]

IF the assumption that the flying can be done cheapest at the regional level is correct, this makes sense.

History has shown this to be the case, but it doesn't necessarily have to be way things shake out in the future.

I agree with what I think you point is here: Market forces are far stronger than the wants of the labor groups.

Correct and those forces are toxic to the pay rates and work rules the senior folks (who negotiate scope) don't want compromised. Better to cut off your arm to save yourself. The damage to the rest of the profession is 'collateral damage' and of little concern. This lack of solidarity is the weakness of organized labor and is exploited by management effectively. I'll say it again - you can't rape the willing.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Two contradictory points here. I like your second much better than your first.

ALPA, or any other airline union or association, wouldn't get slammed by it's members for not getting $100 an hour for CAs on day one. The vast majority of those already at the ML won't care what the starting RJ wages are as long as their own wages grow, or are at the very least not affected by the RJ wages.

Valid point... It will really create a sub culture at ML. Those who fly the RJs will be like those who flew the TPs at the regionals vs the RJs. Recall how the senior RJ pilots at regionals thought their poop didn't stink. The issue will be unity.

I could very well see a scenario where the mainline 'partner' calculates a low, non-negotiable wage scale and benefit package that allows the mainline partner to bring RJs on to the mainline list. Included in this TA will be benefits to the existing seniority list, that while nice, wont destroy the profitability logic of the agreement.

What benefits would those be... exactly.

The management of 'today' at the mainline partner will lower the wage costs of that ML for that quarter, and, for the life of the agreement. (Anything possibly negotiated beyond that won't be the current management's problem.) The existing ML seniority group will get a nice little bonus for the agreement.

For example.....?

This scenario will work because the vast majority of college educated FO's and junior Captains at all of the regionals see the regional as a stepping stone to better, if not necessarily bigger, things in the future of their careers. Starting at the intended goal of being on a ML list will override the fact that it will be for lower compensation that what is available at the regional.

Actually I think the senior ML guys might be asked to subsidize this scheme in the form of flatten compensation, whereas they are expecting to get some back after all these years of loss. They will fight hard... possibly killing the whole deal.

The reason is the regionals simply do it cheaper and bringing RJs to ML will cost money. If not then it wouldn't be this way now.

The problem with the senior guys it they want thier boats back and they believe they are entitled to those boats. Whereas, the junior guys and furloughed pilots simply want to own a house.

Senior guys want back what they had.
Junior guys want what they themselves never had.

Those who would lose the most under this scenario are those who have invested time at the regional level, either in the past or in plans for the future of their careers. It would be ugly to start over at the bottom of the ML list for the senior lifers at the existing regionals. Less pay, vacation, and longevity (all of these things that management would want) for the same work will be the color of this possible new reality.

The regional lifers will ask for some sort of seniority integration like 3:1 for anyone over 10 years at the regionals. Those with 15+ years will demand 1:1 and get stuck with 3:1. For pilots with 5-10 years at the regionals it would be 5:1 or even higher. Less than 5 years at the regionals = staple.

The furloughed ML pilots will state that all regional pilots = staple.

What about non ALPA regionals?

What about the APA and AMR?

 

[CFI2766]

Valid point... It will really create a sub culture at ML. Those who fly the RJs will be like those who flew the TPs at the regionals vs the RJs. Recall how the senior RJ pilots at regionals thought their poop didn't stink. The issue will be unity.

What benefits would those be... exactly.

Whatever is necessary to seal the deal. The goal here is to lower labor costs, not make pilots happy. Neither ML management or the Senior, politically powerful half of the ML list care about unity. Ugly, but true.

For example.....?

Again, whatever would make the deal work, while still being more economically efficient for the ML management.

Actually I think the senior ML guys might be asked to subsidize this scheme in the form of flatten compensation, whereas they are expecting to get some back after all these years of loss. They will fight hard... possibly killing the whole deal.

The mainline list, in this possible scenario, wouldn't be asked to subsidize anything. That would be the quickest way to kill this from happening. I see the opposite happening: the mainline guys get an extra percent here, and extra percent there, directly tied to the successful integration of RJs onto the list. The 'subsidy' that would make this happen would come entirely on the side of the smaller airplane wage scale.

The reason is the regionals simply do it cheaper and bringing RJs to ML will cost money. If not then it wouldn't be this way now.

The regionals do simply do it cheaper than the ML 'partners', for now, under the current model. However, in the scenario I'm fearful of happening, there is no reason for the regionals to be cheaper. Just throwing these numbers out there, but $15/hr FO and $35/hr CA pay to start, with no chance of even a COLA for the duration of the agreement, plus no benefits for, say, the first six months, would make mainline operation of RJs very feasible. The rates are horrible, but guys will line up to interview because the 777/whale rates are at the very end of the tunnel.

The problem with the senior guys it they want thier boats back and they believe they are entitled to those boats. Whereas, the junior guys and furloughed pilots simply want to own a house.

Senior guys want back what they had.
Junior guys want what they themselves never had.

I agree with both of these thoughts. This scenario, which absolutely guts the earnings of the bottom of the industry, gives everyone something they want. Most importantly, it gives the management of the ML GO the ability to post positive numbers that, at least for the first ML to go this route, are dramatically better than the rest of the industry.

The regional lifers will ask for some sort of seniority integration like 3:1 for anyone over 10 years at the regionals. Those with 15+ years will demand 1:1 and get stuck with 3:1. For pilots with 5-10 years at the regionals it would be 5:1 or even higher. Less than 5 years at the regionals = staple.

The furloughed ML pilots will state that all regional pilots = staple.

What about non ALPA regionals?

What about the APA and AMR?

There will be no 'staple', because the regional lists won't be brought on to the mainline lists, per se'. No, it will be straight new hiring by the mainline to staff 'new' RJ flying as it becomes available at the end of the existing regional contracts. This would cleanly and completely eradicate any claims on spots of the ML list, other than the very bottom, by the regional guys. Slowly, one by one, the regionals will find themselves without flying, or having to slash wages to below the new quasi- 'B' scales at the ML. The scope clauses of the regionals will be meaningless; also, there will be no integration necessary as it will be strictly new flying on the ML list. It will be in essence worse than a straight staple, with the benefit to management of getting to start everyone at the bottom of the list at a new and 'enhanced' (to management) first year level of pay.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Valid point... It will really create a sub culture at ML. Those who fly the RJs will be like those who flew the TPs at the regionals vs the RJs. Recall how the senior RJ pilots at regionals thought their poop didn't stink. The issue will be unity.

What benefits would those be... exactly.

Whatever is necessary to seal the deal. The goal here is to lower labor costs, not make pilots happy. Neither ML management or the Senior, politically powerful half of the ML list care about unity. Ugly, but true.

For example.....?

Again, whatever would make the deal work, while still being more economically efficient for the ML management.

Whatever works isn't good enough for me.....I need more details.



Actually I think the senior ML guys might be asked to subsidize this scheme in the form of flatten compensation, whereas they are expecting to get some back after all these years of loss. They will fight hard... possibly killing the whole deal.

The mainline list, in this possible scenario, wouldn't be asked to subsidize anything. That would be the quickest way to kill this from happening. I see the opposite happening: the mainline guys get an extra percent here, and extra percent there, directly tied to the successful integration of RJs onto the list. The 'subsidy' that would make this happen would come entirely on the side of the smaller airplane wage scale.

The reason is the regionals simply do it cheaper and bringing RJs to ML will cost money. If not then it wouldn't be this way now.

The regionals do simply do it cheaper than the ML 'partners', for now, under the current model. However, in the scenario I'm fearful of happening, there is no reason for the regionals to be cheaper. Just throwing these numbers out there, but $15/hr FO and $35/hr CA pay to start, with no chance of even a COLA for the duration of the agreement, plus no benefits for, say, the first six months, would make mainline operation of RJs very feasible. The rates are horrible, but guys will line up to interview because the 777/whale rates are at the very end of the tunnel.

Yikes! The 15/30 is what is going to pay for it. We are already indentured. We borrow the first half only to pay ourselves back for the second half. This will further the decline of the profession.

The problem with the senior guys it they want their boats back and they believe they are entitled to those boats. Whereas, the junior guys and furloughed pilots simply want to own a house.

Senior guys want back what they had.
Junior guys want what they themselves never had.

I agree with both of these thoughts. This scenario, which absolutely guts the earnings of the bottom of the industry, gives everyone something they want. Most importantly, it gives the management of the ML GO the ability to post positive numbers that, at least for the first ML to go this route, are dramatically better than the rest of the industry.

The senior guys have their cake and eat it too. They've got seniority. Job protection and the junior pilots expense, and they have the best schedules, vacation and benefits.

The funding of this needs to come from in part management, because they are responsible for the Colganizing of the industry and from the senior guys.

The senior guys have already shown that they are willing to give up a lot simply to keep their job and senior position on the list. As seen in the BK era. Their battle cry was take my pension but for the love of god let me keep my job.

So instead of the new pilots flying for $15/hour, a safety issue brought to light by Colgan BUF, the senior guys can subsidize it with their double dip on seniority. Besides they snubbed the RJs for Big Jets anyway... they sold off on scope... they can by it back.

Why? because the senior guys need FOs to make the big Captain bucks. You want an FO who lives on Ramen? Such a disparity would be very divisive. Haves and have nots on the flight deck is bad.

The regional lifers will ask for some sort of seniority integration like 3:1 for anyone over 10 years at the regionals. Those with 15+ years will demand 1:1 and get stuck with 3:1. For pilots with 5-10 years at the regionals it would be 5:1 or even higher. Less than 5 years at the regionals = staple.

The furloughed ML pilots will state that all regional pilots = staple.

What about non ALPA regionals?

What about the APA and AMR?


There will be no 'staple', because the regional lists won't be brought on to the mainline lists, per se'. No, it will be straight new hiring by the mainline to staff 'new' RJ flying as it becomes available at the end of the existing regional contracts. This would cleanly and completely eradicate any claims on spots of the ML list, other than the very bottom, by the regional guys. Slowly, one by one, the regionals will find themselves without flying, or having to slash wages to below the new quasi- 'B' scales at the ML. The scope clauses of the regionals will be meaningless; also, there will be no integration necessary as it will be strictly new flying on the ML list. It will be in essence worse than a straight staple, with the benefit to management of getting to start everyone at the bottom of the list at a new and 'enhanced' (to management) first year level of pay.

Sorry. You can't simply wipe out up to 50% of the experienced pilots who provide the domestic lift. They all get jobs at ML except for the ones with legal issues.

 

[CX880]

FLying for who, where? The arrogance and STUPIDITY on this board is stifling. It truly is the inexperienced regional board...BARF

I was merely saying that they ordered 100 Mrjs and with no partners.

 

[Seahawker01]

I would like to see all jets at ML. I'd rather fly an RJ as entry-level equipment to move up from than as the upper-limit of my company.

Agree completely

 

[CFI2766]

Whatever works isn't good enough for me.....I need more details.[/I]

Use your own imagination, here. Frankly, these 'details' of what would be offered to the existing ML pilot group aren't that important. Conceptually, in this scenario, they would be sufficient to garner the support of the ML seniority list, which would be important, but not critical, to this possible nightmare scenario moving forward. Whatever incentives offered would not be enough to alter the long term profitability of the arrangement. (Possible examples: an extra percent on the existing ML pay scale, a separate, higher, pay scale for existing ML pilots in the event they are displaced down to an RJ, slight improvements to the existing retirement vehicles...etc.)



Actually I think the senior ML guys might be asked to subsidize this scheme in the form of flatten compensation, whereas they are expecting to get some back after all these years of loss. They will fight hard... possibly killing the whole deal.

Agree, completely, the existing ML guys would kill the agreement if they had to pay for it, as they should. Not a single dime would have to come from the existing ML list, however, to make this happen. The ML guys would be interested in this arrangement for the furlough protection bennies you've already mentioned. Toss in a few minor improvements to the existing ML agreements and it could even be conceptually done outside of a major negotiation cycle, thus getting 'some back'. The ML HR dept still gets to interview everyone before they enter basic indoc with the right to refuse those who don't meet ML 'standards'.



Yikes! The 15/30 is what is going to pay for it. We are already indentured. We borrow the first half only to pay ourselves back for the second half. This will further the decline of the profession.

The senior guys have their cake and eat it too. They've got seniority. Job protection and the junior pilots expense, and they have the best schedules, vacation and benefits.

The funding of this needs to come from in part management, because they are responsible for the Colganizing of the industry and from the senior guys.


Agree with all three of these points. It's important to constantly realize, which I suspect you have, but I fear others have not, that it's not the goal of the airline management to provide a rewarding, stable career to the pilots.

The funding would come not from management, but from the givebacks on wages and benefits offered up from the junior regional guys in the name of getting a spot on the existing ML seniority list.


The senior guys have already shown that they are willing to give up a lot simply to keep their job and senior position on the list. As seen in the BK era. Their battle cry was take my pension but for the love of god let me keep my job.

So instead of the new pilots flying for $15/hour, a safety issue brought to light by Colgan BUF, the senior guys can subsidize it with their double dip on seniority. Besides they snubbed the RJs for Big Jets anyway... they sold off on scope... they can by it back.

Wishful thinking here, I'm afraid. No 'senior' guy in his right mind would buy anything back. That's not the way it works, nor should it. This is the same flawed logic that defends existing low RJ pay from the standpoint of "...if the regional guys wouldn't accept the job at those low rates, the rates would come up...": circular, and illogical logic.

As painful as it is for me to say this, $19.02, or $15, or even $10 an hour by itself isn't what caused Colgan, or, the industry as a whole to be where it is today. As long as the top Bigfoot, Whale, or 'Bus rates are at the end of the tunnel, there will be plenty of demand for the bottom of the lists. With the military slowly spooling down human flight training, it will be the civilian route to the airlines for more and more prospective pilots. The civilian route to the airlines does not start on a mainline list, as it exists now. Most civilians starting the airline career would see it in their best interests to change this model.

Why? because the senior guys need FOs to make the big Captain bucks. You want an FO who lives on Ramen? Such a disparity would be very divisive. Haves and have nots on the flight deck is bad.

Sure, it's bad for Morale, but inclusiveness and intrinsic or extrinsic rewards for the flying career are not goals of business management. What your or I want, as one single airline pilot pursuing this career, is completely irrelevant. (FWIW, however, we already have those who have and those who have not on the flight deck. The top guys at my regional make six figures, while the bottom, new hire FOs, make five figures with the first digit being a '2'.) Can you quantify 'bad' in this context? It can't be done in a way that impacts the financial statements of the airline industry.

Sorry. You can't simply wipe out up to 50% of the experienced pilots who provide the domestic lift. They all get jobs at ML except for the ones with legal issues.

It would specifically not be an integration of seniority lists. No merger policy would apply. No existing ML pilot would lose anything in the way of seniority or QOL to a regional guy. It would be the end of one company, CHQ, ASA/SKYW, Colgan, Compass, Expressjet, etc., and the growth of another, DAL, CAL, USAir, etc.

'Experienced': In this day and age, with relevance to total compensation, is exactly what airline management is seeking to cut. Resetting labor costs to year one levels, and keeping them lower than they are now, indefinitely, or at least for an extended period of time, is what any good business manager would seek to do. This scenario is one plausible way for this to be accomplished. Throw in the possibility of a ML 'partner' becoming legally liable for any damages awarded as a result of the actions of a regional 'partner', and this scenario becomes much more plausible. Throw in a pilot shortage, and I think this scenario becomes even more plausible.


I'm no strategist for airline management. I'm simply the W.O.P.R spouting plausible scenarios for the metaphorical thermonuclear war that I see coming to the airline career. This particular scenario is especially destructive because I see nothing that any single pilot list or representative association can do about it if it were pursued by an existing ML management.

 

[pipejockey]

Mainline pilots are still far too influenced by the military folks. They will never allow a system that would require a military new hire to suffer the indignity of having to fly a plane with less than 100 seats at current regional rates for a few years. Even though those coming from the military will be most able to afford living at the regional rates. I mean after all, the American taxpayer funded their training and paid them a decent wage to boot! They should have absolutely no debt.

 

[belchfire]

Pilots have already become irrelevant. Look at how successful the unions are at protecting retirement plans...

Superseniority is granted to thieving and incompetent CEO's who get their salaries and severance packages and the crews (and yeah, everyone else) give concessions!

 

[N2264J]

Spoken like a true IDIOT...We ARE going to get 71+ seaters on the mainline property you little snot too bad. Enjoy your regional lifestyle.

I've known Bill for over 10 years now. A couple of us on the Comair MEC sought him out to discuss his "Proposition RJ" white paper while doing our background research preparing for the 2000 PID. Here's a link to his blog and the article this was taken from:

http://www.swelblog.com:80/articles/mainline-pilot-scope-will-regional-carriers-be-permitted-to.html

One of the revelations that came out of the RJDC depositions is the fact that mainline MECs have been using scope as bargaining capital. Now everybody is on to the ALPA con. It not only degraded their ALPA "brothers" at the wholly owned by diminishing their contribution to the company in front of management but also the junior pilots on their own senoirity list by trading away flying for something else in the mainline contract. We've always privately wondered why the junior mainline pilots weren't avid RJDC supporters. ALPA sold them out too. Scoping out airplanes at an arbitrary number of seats and not scoping in the pilots just doesn't work. Everybodies job security is adversely affected.

So those carriers that needed the permission of pilots to compete on a level playing field recognized the need to relax restrictive scope clauses that limited what type of aircraft regional pilots could fly. And that made the scope clause important trading currency for pilot unions that agreed to relax scope protections only in return for improvements in other parts of the agreement.

Take it for what it's worth - here's my prediction: The stimulus package wasn't big enough due to Republican hissy fits about deficits and you'll be in consessionary bargaining before your contract opens again. What used to be called "the regionals" will be flying the C series Bombardier when it comes on line. The precedent is set and your bargaining leverage has been heavily diluted by 9 different DCI carriers.

Everybody knows "regional" MECs had no meaningful voice in ALPA. This is the union the mainliners have made.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

This poor sap needs some help

I've known Bill for over 10 years now. A couple of us on the Comair MEC sought him out to discuss his "Proposition RJ" white paper while doing our background research preparing for the 2000 PID.

You mean when you sued, and failed miserably to abbrogate the legally binding Delta pilots' PWA?
Good thing for you, that you didn't spend all that money, poindexter!

One of the revelations that came out of the RJDC depositions is the fact that mainline MECs have been using scope as bargaining capital.

Another one was the Comair MEC's damaging testony against the rjdc.

ALPA does not discriminate against pilots at smaller carriers or Comair in particular."

"It has been my observation and experience that all ALPA pilot groups, regardless of size or the type of aircraft that they fly, receive the full support of the Association whenever they need it."

Now everybody is on to the ALPA con.

Sure beats being on the losing side of the rjdc.

It not only degraded their ALPA "brothers" at the wholly owned by diminishing their contribution to the company in front of management but also the junior pilots on their own senoirity list by trading away flying for something else in the mainline contract.

Try again sparky. It is you and the uneducated, violation filled pilot group representing the rjdc that has degraded their "ALPA" brothers by filing their frivilous lawsuit and wasting hundreds of thousands of union dollars!

We've always privately wondered why the junior mainline pilots weren't avid RJDC supporters.

Because most of them don't have violations, dui's, and do have college degrees. Oh, and they've applied to their mainline carriers, and didn't try to sue to get on the seniority list.

ALPA sold them out too. Scoping out airplanes at an arbitrary number of seats and not scoping in the pilots just doesn't work. Everybodies job security is adversely affected.

And yet Comair has how many on furlough? And Delta?
Sounds like Comair needs to negotiate some scope of their own......

Take it for what it's worth -

Ok, I'll give you a nickle!

here's my prediction: The stimulus package wasn't big enough due to Republican hissy fits about deficits and you'll be in consessionary bargaining before your contract opens again. What used to be called "the regionals" will be flying the C series Bombardier when it comes on line.

Looking at your track record with the rjdc, I'd say your prediction will be about as successful as your pathetic lawsuit!:laugh:

The precedent is set and your bargaining leverage has been heavily diluted by 9 different DCI carriers.

I guess that shows since DAL has announced the additional parking of over 100 50 seat rj's. Again, How many on furlough from Mesa? Comair?
Delta??

Everybody knows "regional" MECs had no meaningful voice in ALPA. This is the union the mainliners have made.

I guess you haven't viewed who's on the EVP at ALPA national?
I don't expect facts to get in the way of the rjdc, it hasn't ever before.
We don't hate the regionals n2264j, just pathetic scumbags like you and the rest of the rjdc!

 

[Beaver79]

Wrong. If it's a jet it needs to be mainline. Let the kiddos play with the T-props.

So using your logic, my C-130 is child's play??? Even though I'm sure it's been to many more airports and continents than your big jet....

 

[xjhawk]

I need not read any further. I agree. Mainline needs to make scope a "brand" issue and not a seat issue. It would solve most everything. Yes it would cause some problems, but carriers such as Delta could do it fairly smoothly at first with its owned regionals and then work from there. I think there would be benefits for both pilots and company. If the company would dangle some carrots (more wide body jets) for keeping the set in place regional pay structure for the smaller jets, the company could make some serious cash savings happen. Think about it, a former NWA captain on a DC-9 10 made like $180 an hour and that was for 78 seats. Now a 76 seat regional captain makes like $100 if he has been there 20 years. Wow. Hell Delta could take over hiring at all three regionals as they intergrate the lists. As long as they did some sort of fair staple on the mainline list, I would go for it. Some sort of relative seniorty/date of hire melding would work. Heck every NWA guy I have talked to were okay with how their position on the new list ended up