Pilots will become irrelevant in the US domestic market

[WayBack]

Spoken like a true IDIOT..... We ARE going to get 71+ seaters on the mainline property you little snot too bad. Enjoy your regional lifestyle.

E-145, huh? Who did you fly that one for?
When the CRJ-700 came out, mainline guys screamed and yelled that they were going to get on ML property. Then the -900 came out and that's still not on the ML property. Wishful thinking on the JO's who were too good to fly those little airplanes almost 20yrs ago.

As for the future of the mainline pilot, in 15-20 years it will be nothing but a brand name. UAL, DAL, CAL and every other legacy carrier will be nothing but a marketing and reservation company who contracts out all their flying. No more ML pilots, just outsourced flying down by the carriers once referred to as regional and feeder airlines.

 

[Poahi]

Mainline needs to make scope a "brand" issue and not a seat issue. If the company would dangle some carrots (more wide body jets) for keeping the set in place regional pay structure for the smaller jets,

I'm afraid it's too late to put the genie back in the bottle. The mainline pilots with any influence want to keep the widebodies as far from the RJ's as possible. The only hope of changing brand scope is if there is a huge lack of quality pilots. That will be several years from now...

 

[WayBack]

So you really expect a 55,000 member union ....

I love it when you and PFT128 throw that number out there! It's as if you believe that all members of ALPA are members because they want to be.
Not because when they get hired at ABC Airlines and have to start paying dues, or otherwise ALPA will ask for that pilots termination.

 

[beagle pilot]

So using your logic, my C-130 is child's play??? Even though I'm sure it's been to many more airports and continents than your big jet....

You've just been introduced to the primary mindset of a mainline pilot. Unfortunately, those that think this way have let their arrogance override their common sense.

Like you, I was military. I retired after 21 years in 1998 with 13 years active duty and the rest reserves. I had over 5000 hours of both fleet helicopter time and T-34 instructor time. My time in the airlines began when I was 35 and I just turned 54 with over 17,000 total hours yet far too many mainline pilots who are 10-15 years younger with half the flight experience think I'm a poorly trained, undisciplined snot-nosed college "kiddo". Over half of my peers are close to my age and flight time.

 

[beagle pilot]

As long as there are markets that only support regional jets, there will be regional jets. ML MEC's need to realize you can't negotiate 100 seat airplanes into 50 seat markets and make money. If ML MECs want that flying then they need to integrate all regional ops into their companies.

Agreed, but they will not do it. Out of the top 5 remaining legacies (this includes USAirways), not one has even come close to bringing that idea to life. They aren't interested because they consider regional airlines the enemy, not partners. I recently had a mainline pilot tell me he'd rather see all the flying go to a competing LCC rather than a regional airline partner.* That's the attitude which will prevent most mainlines from merging their regional partners or forming farm club agreements or anything else which will help strengthen unions and prevent a further erosion of pilot pay, benefits and QOL.


*From the Regional jets: Reign over Part 2 thread
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1969940#post1969940

IN the end according to this article my job is effectively coming to end, so the choices are letting the LCCs take it or giving up SCOPE so you can ride around the country in 100-130 seat jets (giving my the finger with a big smile on your face.)

In the end if my job is lost, I would rather let it be lost to an LCC, they still pay far more than your company ever will. If I have to reapply for work again I would rather put in my application at Southwest, Jetblue, or Airtran over Eagle any day of the week..


AA

 

[Flightdawg]

Spoken like a true IDIOT. The 50 seat jets don't make money they dont make money GET IT???? They are a jet, you need a turboprop. As far getting 100 seaters...DC9-10, Fokker 100 etc were around long before you little boy. We ARE going to get 71+ seaters on the mainline property you little snot too bad. Enjoy your regional lifestyle.

FLying for who, where? The arrogance and STUPIDITY on this board is stifling. It truly is the inexperienced regional board...BARF

Are posts like this supposed to impress the public about your experience, maturity and professionalism as an airline pilot? Sorry, but I'm not impressed. You remind me of this guy - http://img260.imageshack.us/img260/3484/kidpilot.jpg

 

[JumpersAway]

Spoken like a true IDIOT. The 50 seat jets don't make money they dont make money GET IT???? They are a jet, you need a turboprop. As far getting 100 seaters...DC9-10, Fokker 100 etc were around long before you little boy. We ARE going to get 71+ seaters on the mainline property you little snot too bad. Enjoy your regional lifestyle.

Just curious, but when will we stop seeing more useless banter out of you and more action? For years, mainline MEC's have been giving scope as if it were from a vending machine. Your contractual scope provisions mimic a Pez dispensor...................

It amazes me that many give it away for personal gain, and then get angry to see that it is actually being flown. It is as if you actually thought people would stay away from these jobs- and your retaliation is to take it out on those that do. Your hostility towards the pilots, and not toward the managements or MEC's that caused this problem is astounding.

...............Waiting for a totally useless diatribe of insults and poo flinging in
-3
-2
-1
...........................................

As I've said time and time again- I think that any aircraft with jet engines should be a mainline aircraft. No classes, no pilot vs. pilot- just a single list, single brand, and single unified group of pilots pushing to restore what is RIGHTFULLY ours..........dignified wages for the work we do every day, and the skill we provide that allows an airline the tools to make money.

As my favorite quote goes- "No bucks, no Buck Rogers".........

 

[WayBack]

I just turned 54 with over 17,000 total hours yet far too many mainline pilots who are 10-15 years younger with half the flight experience think I'm a poorly trained, undisciplined snot-nosed college "kiddo".

Sounds like you're bothered by this. Why do you care what others think of you?

 

[motch]

Well Trans States Holdings ordered not 10, not 20, but 100 MRJs and with no partners. They obviously see the future with lots of 70-120 seat RJs flying around.

Trans States Holdings placed an order for an aircraft that-
Isn't even flying yet, and
Being produced by a company that hasn't produced a modern commercial aircraft.

This was purely a marketing tool and union busting move by management.
Then again, look at those "managers". The word IDIOT comes to mind~

Back in 2000, TSA was a fairly decent carrier with almost 80 aircraft. And their local competition, CHQ.. was a nobody.
Fast forward today, and you have a company with 2 carriers under it, 55 aircraft and major labor issues.
CHQ on the other hand, has grown leaps and bounds. (Some of it not good, unfortunately (IMO))

Those MRJ's will never been flown under any mainline colors with the word 'Express' on the side of it, let alone by TSA Holdings.

The CSeries and possible EMB190/195 will eventually make it to the mainline side of the house. The 70-76 seat market may be lost to the Regional/Commuter carriers, but the line has been drawn.

It would be great if Boeing looked at building a 737-500NG, 90-120 seats, composite parts, newer engines and modern flight deck.
Would you expect that aircraft at TSA Holdings or any other bottom feeder?

Motch
FUPM~DARMA~Shut It Down

 

[rogerwilcoout]

They will what? I have a feeling most mainline pilots are aware of this, and they will not just "go for the money" while giving away scope. There is a 76 seat limit now, and unless there are more BKs, I don't think it will go higher. Heck, I want out of my joint and into a better life. They better not give it up!

I hope not. That is why they are in this mess in the first place. They couldn't see past their wallets!

 

[beagle pilot]

Sounds like you're bothered by this. Why do you care what others think of you?

Bothered, yes, care about what people think of me personally, not so much.

The first step to finding solutions is to properly identify the problem. What bothers me in this endless struggle between major airline pilots and their regional pilot brethren are the misconceptions that exist between the two groups. The misconceptions, as in those I pointed out in the post you quoted Wayback, give rise to unnecessary problems. We should be focused on finding solutions to our common problems with management. Instead, we're locked into constant pilot-to-pilot struggles over management crumbs.

Your constant attacks on your union brethren isn't helping either, Wayback. In fact, it's detrimental to your own career since weakens the only group which can help you obtain a more meaningful and rewarding career.

 

[CX880]

Trans States Holdings placed an order for an aircraft that-
Isn't even flying yet, and
Being produced by a company that hasn't produced a modern commercial aircraft.

This was purely a marketing tool and union busting move by management.
Then again, look at those "managers". The word IDIOT comes to mind~

Back in 2000, TSA was a fairly decent carrier with almost 80 aircraft. And their local competition, CHQ.. was a nobody.
Fast forward today, and you have a company with 2 carriers under it, 55 aircraft and major labor issues.
CHQ on the other hand, has grown leaps and bounds. (Some of it not good, unfortunately (IMO))

Those MRJ's will never been flown under any mainline colors with the word 'Express' on the side of it, let alone by TSA Holdings.

The CSeries and possible EMB190/195 will eventually make it to the mainline side of the house. The 70-76 seat market may be lost to the Regional/Commuter carriers, but the line has been drawn.

It would be great if Boeing looked at building a 737-500NG, 90-120 seats, composite parts, newer engines and modern flight deck.
Would you expect that aircraft at TSA Holdings or any other bottom feeder?

Motch
FUPM~DARMA~Shut It Down

I really doubt that was a union busting move. It's obviously marketing though, that's the point isn't it? On one hand you're saying that TSH has IDIOT managers yet you're spelling out a theory that in order to get around paying pilots 10 dollars more per hour, they made a major international ground breaking order of 100 Mitsubishi Jets in Japan of all places. Too much going on there for a small company that's known for being conservative. I doubt we'll see 120 seat MRJs at TSH but they do make 70+ seat versions too.

 

[buscap]

Trans States Holdings placed an order for an aircraft that-
Isn't even flying yet, and
Being produced by a company that hasn't produced a modern commercial aircraft.

This was purely a marketing tool and union busting move by management.
Then again, look at those "managers". The word IDIOT comes to mind~

Back in 2000, TSA was a fairly decent carrier with almost 80 aircraft. And their local competition, CHQ.. was a nobody.
Fast forward today, and you have a company with 2 carriers under it, 55 aircraft and major labor issues.
CHQ on the other hand, has grown leaps and bounds. (Some of it not good, unfortunately (IMO))

Those MRJ's will never been flown under any mainline colors with the word 'Express' on the side of it, let alone by TSA Holdings.

The CSeries and possible EMB190/195 will eventually make it to the mainline side of the house. The 70-76 seat market may be lost to the Regional/Commuter carriers, but the line has been drawn.

It would be great if Boeing looked at building a 737-500NG, 90-120 seats, composite parts, newer engines and modern flight deck.
Would you expect that aircraft at TSA Holdings or any other bottom feeder?

Motch
FUPM~DARMA~Shut It Down

You sir, are thinking small and shortsighted.

ALL branded flying needs to be on your seniority list. And I'm talking about all the toys. Not just the pretty planes.

Go ahead and stay with that mainline version of SJS and you will only continue the cycle.

Yes, I'm suggesting a mainline pilot fly a turbo-prop. But ooooohhhh, we can't have that!!!

 

[motch]

Want to explain how I'm thinking "Shortsighted"?

The reality is, we will never get those 19 seat turboprops, 30 seat turboprops, 37 seat turbojets, 50 seat turbojets, 76 seat turboprops and now, probably.. 76 seat turbojets aircraft back on mainline scope because-

How does one group do it and the other doesn't.

If we, at CAL.. say-
Every aircraft with Continental colors and Continental passengers are flown by Continental pilots or we strike and shut it down.. what happens when Delta, American, United and USAirways doesn't follow suit.
What was the last 30-70 seat aircraft that was flown at mainline?
F100's at American comes into mind, as does Dash 7's at PanAm.

The reason those 76 seat Turbojets are flown by regionals is because USAirways and United pilot groups gave them up due to fear of chapter 7.

Once they did it, Delta was able to force their pilots to follow due to bankruptcy. Hell, even American allows a handful of CRJ700's at Eagle (I believe).

I am not shortsighted, I am realistic.
I am not willing to give up on 90-110 seat jet aircraft scope.
I am willing to talk and listen to 70-76 seat jet aircraft scope BUT with major conditions and protections.
I don't know how we get the 50 seat jet and 76 prop aircraft back without buying our Express Carriers and stapling them to the bottom.

Perfect world, yeah.. the Beech 1900 to the Airbus 380 and everything in between, is flown by the Legacy Pilot. But that horse has left the barn, just like steam gauges and flight engineers.
So the question becomes, how do we protect what we have now, and guarantee what we will have in the future.

When a company like Trans States Holding places an order for a 100 seat aircraft, I have to laugh. Where do they expect to put them?

Why do we also allow a Regional Carrier to feed numerous Legacy airlines that actually compete against each other?
TSA was, at one point, feeding American, United and USAirways. Legacy pilot groups (ALPA wise) should not allow that either.
How about the fact that Republic is still feeding numerous competing carriers (Alliances) while at the same time, running their own airline.
Why would I want to give Republic some of my feeder business when they are also my competition in other markers?

Why don't we also have something in our contracts that say-
Any feeder carrier must employee Union pilots?!

The industry is what it is...
Maybe, in 3 years, when the Majors start hiring en mass and the Regionals start having a hard time finding FO's with ATP mins willing to work for substandard wages, things will change alittle.
Legacy carriers wanting to fly into new markets but can't find feed...then maybe they will just put that 90-110 seat jet flown by mainline onto that new route. Not 4-5 times a day but at least twice a day.

I can hope~
Always
Motch
FUPM~DARMA~Shut It Down

 

[motch]

Oh, and I would fly my old ERJ145 or a Q400 for Continental Mainline in a heartbeat. And many of my fellow pilots would also.

Knowing that I would be under my own carriers colors, and that someday, I would end up in something much bigger~

None of the pilots hired in the last wave (your bottom third of the seniority list, at any Legacy) would have a problem doing that.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Oh, and I would fly my old ERJ145 or a Q400 for Continental Mainline in a heartbeat. And many of my fellow pilots would also.

Knowing that I would be under my own carriers colors, and that someday, I would end up in something much bigger~

None of the pilots hired in the last wave (your bottom third of the seniority list, at any Legacy) would have a problem doing that.

The question is... would you fly the jungle jet for CAL ML on a B scale?

This is the real quamire.....

 

[motch]

Rez...
You bring up a good point. But lets ask this question, What is a "B" Scale?

If those aircraft were on property for 'X' amount and a few years later we say that all new hires go into those aircraft but at 'Y' scale, to me- that is a "B" scale.

Now, if we brought the 50 and 76 seat Jets & Turbo Props on property and had a scale that is the highest of those aircraft now, or industry average... sure. I would fly them, maybe by choice, maybe by displacement.

I don't (Sorry to say it) expect a 50 seat RJ to pay the same as a 124 seat 737. Just like I don't expect the 737-500 to pay the same as the 777.
We have to live in the real world.

Guess it comes down to where we all draw the line.

If people say, 50 seat RJ at mainline and at SWA wages, I laugh. Then I ask, why don't we include the Beech1900 flown under Continental Colors, or the SkyWest EMB120's under United Express Colors, or Mesba's Saabs under Delta.. etc?

If the entry aircraft is a 50-76 seat aircraft at a livable wage, and mainline workrules, I'm all for it. Maybe then, we would not have had Colgan 3407.

Now we just have to figure out how to sell that to ALPA National, and the top 1/3 of every seniority list! On top of Management~

Good discussion though...

 

[WayBack]

Your constant attacks on your union brethren isn't helping either, Wayback. In fact, it's detrimental to your own career since weakens the only group which can help you obtain a more meaningful and rewarding career.

Are you referring to the airlines here in America? meaningful and rewarding? Have you not heard there are no more pensions? Oh, wait. Profit sharing checks, those are going to put my kids through college!

The union will do nothing to secure a meaningful, rewarding career. If you want one of those, you have to go get on your own.

 

[Draginass]

Want to explain how I'm thinking "Shortsighted"?

The reality is, we will never get those 19 seat turboprops, 30 seat turboprops, 37 seat turbojets, 50 seat turbojets, 76 seat turboprops and now, probably.. 76 seat turbojets aircraft back on mainline scope because-

How does one group do it and the other doesn't.

If we, at CAL.. say-
Every aircraft with Continental colors and Continental passengers are flown by Continental pilots or we strike and shut it down.. what happens when Delta, American, United and USAirways doesn't follow suit.
What was the last 30-70 seat aircraft that was flown at mainline?
F100's at American comes into mind, as does Dash 7's at PanAm.

The reason those 76 seat Turbojets are flown by regionals is because USAirways and United pilot groups gave them up due to fear of chapter 7.

Once they did it, Delta was able to force their pilots to follow due to bankruptcy. Hell, even American allows a handful of CRJ700's at Eagle (I believe).

I am not shortsighted, I am realistic.
I am not willing to give up on 90-110 seat jet aircraft scope.
I am willing to talk and listen to 70-76 seat jet aircraft scope BUT with major conditions and protections.
I don't know how we get the 50 seat jet and 76 prop aircraft back without buying our Express Carriers and stapling them to the bottom.

Perfect world, yeah.. the Beech 1900 to the Airbus 380 and everything in between, is flown by the Legacy Pilot. But that horse has left the barn, just like steam gauges and flight engineers.
So the question becomes, how do we protect what we have now, and guarantee what we will have in the future.

When a company like Trans States Holding places an order for a 100 seat aircraft, I have to laugh. Where do they expect to put them?

Why do we also allow a Regional Carrier to feed numerous Legacy airlines that actually compete against each other?
TSA was, at one point, feeding American, United and USAirways. Legacy pilot groups (ALPA wise) should not allow that either.
How about the fact that Republic is still feeding numerous competing carriers (Alliances) while at the same time, running their own airline.
Why would I want to give Republic some of my feeder business when they are also my competition in other markers?

Why don't we also have something in our contracts that say-
Any feeder carrier must employee Union pilots?!

The industry is what it is...
Maybe, in 3 years, when the Majors start hiring en mass and the Regionals start having a hard time finding FO's with ATP mins willing to work for substandard wages, things will change alittle.
Legacy carriers wanting to fly into new markets but can't find feed...then maybe they will just put that 90-110 seat jet flown by mainline onto that new route. Not 4-5 times a day but at least twice a day.

I can hope~
Always
Motch
FUPM~DARMA~Shut It Down

Don't give in on 70 seat aircraft! FYI, the APA's scope clause allowed 25 70 seaters, plus another 25 if the company exercised the options, which they didn't originally. However, an arbitrator ruled that even though the formal written options had, on the surface, expired, there was a "secret verbal agreement" between AMR and Bombardier for those aircraft and he is allowing AMR to buy 22 of them under the farce of a secret verbal agreement. Draw your own conclusions about that.

AA pilots and the APA is in no mood to give one millimeter on scope and in fact is demanding that the commuter exception that allows AE to even exist in the first place, be eliminated. The company is demanding to replace the 50 seat beercans with 70 seat airplanes 1 for 1. Like many of these commuter outfits, AE is stuck with a bunch of economically obsolete little airplanes, and the managements want their mainline pilots to pay, yet again, for management's own incompetence and stupidity.

Hold tight. CAL and AA are the only ones that haven't folded like a cheap suit on scope. Delta and United ALPA has done nothing except pitch-over in the race to ruin the profession.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez...
You bring up a good point. But lets ask this question, What is a "B" Scale?

If those aircraft were on property for 'X' amount and a few years later we say that all new hires go into those aircraft but at 'Y' scale, to me- that is a "B" scale.

Now, if we brought the 50 and 76 seat Jets & Turbo Props on property and had a scale that is the highest of those aircraft now, or industry average... sure. I would fly them, maybe by choice, maybe by displacement.

I don't (Sorry to say it) expect a 50 seat RJ to pay the same as a 124 seat 737. Just like I don't expect the 737-500 to pay the same as the 777.
We have to live in the real world.

Guess it comes down to where we all draw the line.

If people say, 50 seat RJ at mainline and at SWA wages, I laugh. Then I ask, why don't we include the Beech1900 flown under Continental Colors, or the SkyWest EMB120's under United Express Colors, or Mesba's Saabs under Delta.. etc?

If the entry aircraft is a 50-76 seat aircraft at a livable wage, and mainline workrules, I'm all for it. Maybe then, we would not have had Colgan 3407.

Now we just have to figure out how to sell that to ALPA National, and the top 1/3 of every seniority list! On top of Management~

Good discussion though...

I think most pilots have been complaining about scope and how the ML guys gave it away..... and that all flying should be done with on one list within the brand.....

However, the reason the regionals exist is simply because they are cheaper... so, if it is to be done on one list, then it has to been done just as cheap... that means.. no ML work rules or benefits....

The only gain the B scale pilots would have is the ability to bid the larger traditional ML jets when their senioirty could hold it... otherwise it is the snobby arrogant WB guys, the moderate NB guys and the riff raff regional scum... all on one list... the infighting and divide and conquer will tough for any leader to manage...



Not an easy nut to crack...