Pilots pay

[GroundedBat]

Two day ago I remember to see on MSNBC the top 20 highest paid jobs in the country. To my surprise the pilots/copilots/flight engineers were listed on tenth place after chief executives with 99505 dollars per year. Am I missing something on this picture????

 

[phishn@daves]

Hmm.........., well I'm not sure if you are missing something on this picture, however.......you are missing a few letters on your post.

 

[pilotyip]

averages

Remember this is an average, not an absolute statement. At most companies the pilots make more than all but the top level of mangement. There are many middle level managers making far less than the average pilot. A CEO at a small to mid sized company probably makes less than the average 121 pilot.

 

[GroundedBat]

My point was that for one pilot making 100G/year we have maybe 10 pilots on the street looking for a job. If that's the case we have approx 10G/year income per pilot. Media creating false images about something is not new but to generalize one professional group like that doesn't sound kosher to me. Public opinion is not favorable to us anyway, so, trying to have them hating us I believe is too much.

 

[banned username 2]

My point was that for one pilot making 100G/year we have maybe 10 pilots on the street looking for a job. If that's the case we have approx 10G/year income per pilot.

I understand what you are trying to say, but you can't look at it that way. That 100k year pilot job is just that, and then there are 10 "unemployed individuals", can't spread the pay between them because the work isn't spread between them. Doesn't work that way.

I agree the media isn't worth a $hit when it comes to accuracy, but your way is just as inaccurate as theirs.

 

[GroundedBat]

This is too much........

 

[Ace757]

Pilot pay is in serious decline. If we don't stand up for ourselves soon we will be all making $5.50 an hr on a 767. If pilots would not apply to airlines with low pay, airlines would have to raise it. This is just like any other industry. The only problem is that people love this job, and will accept the $5.50 an hr just to fly

 

[B1900DFO]

Here is the problem. Major airlines reward pilots for taking the worst jobs in the industry in order to get ahead. All Ual, AMR, Dal, SWA, etc. care about is pic turbine time, which causes young pilots to jump at the quickest upgrade in the industry regardless of the pay/working conditions. The pilots on the interview boards at the majors reward those who helped perpetuate the downward spiral of the industry by signing crap contracts in order to get more flying/quicker upgrade. Untill people start looking at the quality of airlines that applicants work for then there will never be a shortage of pilots banging on Ornstein's door looking for a minimum wage pilot job. I hear major pilots complaining about people taking these underpaid jobs, but when the hiring is going strong these are the people they hire. Essentially the interview boards at the majors and LCC's have helped create the demand for terrible commuter jobs.

 

[Wiggums]

So don't sell out and take those jobs. I'm making a respectable living as a CFI, more then any commuter FO and I'm not leaving until I find a job that pays better then my current one.

 

[B1900DFO]

I agree with you 100%. All I am saying is that the industry rewards those who sell out in order to get ahead. As long as that is the case the race to the bottom will go on and this profession will continue to erode.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

did someone say that the average Part 121 pilot makes more than the average mid-size company CEO?

Where can I get that 121 job?

this is F'n rediculous!!!

 

[FL717]

So don't sell out and take those jobs. I'm making a respectable living as a CFI, more then any commuter FO and I'm not leaving until I find a job that pays better then my current one.

I'm not taking a shot at you so please understand that my questions are just that, questions.

What exactly is your ultimate goal as a pilot as far as industry sector and pay/benefits?

What is your current plan and timetable to get there from where you are now?

After I get your responses, I will post the comments that I'd like to put out right now, but waiting.

 

[Bob]

Maybe a way to start alerting people to the exploitive jobs is to start submitting information to places like this:

http://www.bad-aviationjobs.com

forwarned is for-armed.

 

[WrightAvia]

A CEO at a small to mid sized company probably makes less than the average 121 pilot.

One, I know a guy that owns a company that employs less than 15 people and I know that guy takes home more than 90K a year.

Two, I know of field service technicians that make 90K a year and they don't get their hands all that dirty...plinking on a lap top and telling factory in house maintenance staff what nut to turn on, etc.

Spend a hundred grand on an education, years of toiling at dangerous entry level flying jobs paying below 19K a year and then discuss 7-10 year FO wages at a major (90K) as if that is the average in the aviation industry. No wonder there is no shortage of lemmings.

 

[Cat3C]

Hey, is that the Milwaukee Bucks new coach?

 

[Ty Webb]

I'm making a respectable living as a CFI, more then any commuter FO and I'm not leaving until I find a job that pays better then my current one.

Unless you're making well over $40K as a CFI, I don't think you are making more than an FO at one of the better regionals. If you are- congratulations, because you have one of the highest-paying CFI jobs I've ever heard of.

Since most airlines pay "probationary pay" the first year, if you are looking at first-year pay to determine if it is a "better paying job" your next job won't be an airline job, that's for sure.

I went the corporate route to avoid the low starting pay of a regional, but if I had gone the regional route, I'd be a captain at AirTran instead of an FO right now. . . .

 

[FL717]

Hey Ty:

Thanks for the thread bump. I noticed "he" never responded to my questions. Talk is always cheap.

Doing something... well you know!

 

[flyhard]

B1900FO,

For a 1500 hour f/o you sure have it all figured out don't you. I was going to reply to that post but I read it a second time and realized you really don't know what the fuc* you are talking about. Like the earlier post stated, talk is cheap.

 

[secks]

B1900FO,

For a 1500 hour f/o you sure have it all figured out don't you. I was going to reply to that post but I read it a second time and realized you really don't know what the fuc* you are talking about. Like the earlier post stated, talk is cheap.

Talk is cheap, isn't it? So, why don't you explain why he's wrong?

 

[flyhard]

Major airlines reward pilots for taking the worst jobs in the industry in order to get ahead. All Ual, AMR, Dal, SWA, etc. care about is pic turbine time, which causes young pilots to jump at the quickest upgrade in the industry regardless of the pay/working conditions.

Okay if you were on an interview board who would you pick? It is all about experience. I think I would take the three years of $hitty pay and working conditions in exchange for thirty-three years of great pay and working conditions. In fact, that is what I did do.

The fact remains most of the regional airlines are going to be a stepping stone for the major airlines. Management knows that and most of the pilots know that as well. Especially in todays market, there are always going to be people that will fly for next to nothing.

Now blaming all this on an interview board...........put down the pipe dude. You do know that you are elgible for a random drug test don't you?

 

[secks]

Its actually quite simple. He's right about the other guy being wrong.

If you can't figure that out and answer that question on your own, he probably won't be able to break it down for you either.

Les

Yeah, probably not. After all, I am a complete idiot. You, on the other hand ...

B1900DFO made some good points about how the majors reward those who tolerate the terrible regional jobs in order to build hours. Is this a bad thing? Depends on who you ask.

Please tell me how he is "wrong". Don't bother pointing to flyhard's post; he failed to debate the point. He basically reiterated the fact that the regionals are a stepping stone to the majors, as if that is a justification for poor working conditions.

 

[peepsmover]

Jobs

I think the premise is wrong, the 121 carriers do not grant direct "rewards" for taking crappy jobs, to pin it on one element is too simplistic, as there are a variety of factors to consider. Besides crappy entry jobs are not solely unique to pilot careers. Certainly the way to earn the most desireable experience is debatable as there are a variety of success stories.

Those pilots who take a crappy job to get the experience are taking a chance, as there may not be a slot to the majors or whatever their ultimate goal is, much like it is now, so should they be faulted for doing so? Equally, should pilots from stronger airlines complain about the severe wage cuts pilots from airlines facing bankruptcy took? No, of course not, they all did what they had to do.

With numerous pilots from the majors laid off, the competition for those coveted jobs has become extremely difficult for those without 121 experience, therefore everyone is doing the best they can, given the situation they are in, and my hats off to all of them, whether its an afterburners-on, fly my lips off, pay me nothing/I pay you, or a person who is proceeding in a less agressive approach.

In the end it is ultimately an individual assessment there are no warranties. I wish you all much success with your efforts.

 

[B1900DFO]

Flyhard,

I really enjoyed your intelligent, well thought out reply. Impressive...

 

[acaTerry]

pilots/copilots/flight engineers were listed on tenth place after chief executives with 99505 dollars per year. Am I missing something on this picture????

Yes, you are missing something. MSNBC is full of Sh1t! Average? Negative Rafter Man. You'll go broke twice before the time you reach this kind of money. What MSNBC does is take the hourly pilot wage and multiply it by a 40 hour pay week. This comes to big bucks, IF you got paid for the 40 hour week. You'll average 180 hours duty, 300 hrs time away from home, and get paid 75-80 hours. This is quite different from the media and laypersons take on pilot pay.

 

[FlyinBrian]

First of all, most Department of Labor wage statistics use MEDIAN income instead of average. This explains why the number is so high. I think an average would be much lower.

Secondly, this number includes the wages only of currently employed pilots. Just imagine how the median or average income would come down if you included all the furloughs and people who are qualified but can't find a job...

Thirdly, it is not the interview boards responsable for the veritable hoarde of pilots scratching their way to a job at the majors. It is the high salaries on the top end that make the salaries on the low end so miserable. It is really very simple. The unions at the majors have removed the free-market forces that would otherwise determine their pay. As a result, they receive wages MUCH higher than the market would otherwise allow. This increases demand for those jobs, which in turn increases the supply of pilots trying to get them.

When you increase the supply of a good or service, the price (read: regional pilot salary) decrases. (assuming no changes in demand for that service.)

You can't escape economics...

 

[Draginass]

Would a F/O flying a 767 internationally and making $75k flying based in New York be considered an excessive salary? Well, that's what an AA F/O makes now. I'll bet bus drivers make pretty close to that. These salary comparisons done by so-called news medias are a crock.

 

[FlyinBrian]

You think a bus dirver makes 75K a year?

Here are the Y2K stats, provided by the U.S. department of labor...

Median annual earnings of airline pilots, copilots, and flight engineers were $110,940.

Median annual earnings of commercial pilots were $43,300

Median hourly earnings of transit and intercity busdrivers were $12.36 ($25,708 annualized)

Anyway, like it or not, $75K is above a market wage for an international 767 FO. Meaning of course, that if you removed the union contract and let the market set the salary according to each pilot's indivuidual values and choices, they would work for less.

But you had to pay your "dues" to get there. Paying the dues was suffering the economic fallout of the high salary that you now earn.

 

[FlyinBrian]

Good reading:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos107.htm

 

[secks]

It is the high salaries on the top end that make the salaries on the low end so miserable. It is really very simple. The unions at the majors have removed the free-market forces that would otherwise determine their pay. As a result, they receive wages MUCH higher than the market would otherwise allow. This increases demand for those jobs, which in turn increases the supply of pilots trying to get them.

Anyway, like it or not, $75K is above a market wage for an international 767 FO. Meaning of course, that if you removed the union contract and let the market set the salary according to each pilot's indivuidual values and choices, they would work for less.

But you had to pay your "dues" to get there. Paying the dues was suffering the economic fallout of the high salary that you now earn.

FlyinBrian:

I couldn't have said it better myself. The working conditions many pilots resent are a direct result of union-protected benefits at the majors. Pilots are willing to walk on their hands and knees through broken glass to earn a seat at a major. Thus, you've got a gigantic supply of pilots competing for very limited positions. In order to make themselves more marketable, pilots will stomach low wages in order to earn flight hours. This is common sense.

Ask yourself this: Who benefits from this system? The airlines do not. Unemployed pilots do not. Freelance/regional pilots do not. Consumers do not. The only group which benefits are currently employed airline pilots.

 

[peepsmover]

Free Market

I think you all are making some interesting points, and certainly at first glance there is some credence to your points, but to lay the woes of regional pilots or pilots in general at the feet of the Major Airline pilots really does not bear scrutiny.

First, the premise that unions stifle the free market is categorically false. United and American pilots took wage cuts, and like in all past economic downturns, pilots at other carriers have done the same all for the simple reason: operating costs exceeded revenues, if they hadn't neither of these companies would be in existence today. Furthermore, for most fleets, the establishment of the wages themselves reflect a multitude of factors: higher productivity in the way of more passengers, international flights, and more cargo, in short, higher revenue.
Case in point, most effecient yet low cost SWA still pays their pilots very well and offers them stock options.

Finally, the key point is that such wages were earned by pilots going on strike or threat of strike, as you may well know whether the company is small or large, depending on their benevolence for your wages yields poor wages. So being able to use your labor as leverage illuminates the free market perfectly. Some pilots were never recalled so not every strike has been successful.
Equally, labor rules are the most criticized, and certainly there are some that are not based on sound fiscal policy, however they chiefly are there to ensure the health and safety of the crew and the flight itself.

Hence, pilot wages at the Majors are dynamic reflecting the elements of a free market product. Union bashing makes for great headlines, but our success is reflected in our rules and wages, which hopefully you will get to someday enjoy as well. I would argue that the exorbiant salaries of CEOs have not even come close to taking paycuts that equal the percentages of either American or United pilots. In fact, Delta's management elected to set aside greater than $20 million dollars for executive retirement accounts that are protected from bankruptcy, workers obviously have to solely hope that the company will remain solvent long enough for them to retire from, and still remain solvent. So is that comforting to know that your management could care less if the company went bankrupt?

Still, there is no denying that pilots working their way up to a seat in the Majors are attracted by the attractive pay, but I've read where even some RJ Capts, are making over $100K, so its not only the majors, but heck, aspiring doctors, lawyers, and actors are all in competitive fields that do not pay well at the outset. As a result, aviation is no different or unique in that respect. I would suggest unionizing yourselves, but obviously nobody sees any benefit because everybody wants to build the time, to curry favor with management, to get the next higher job, and so it goes, but that too was a challenge that ALPA faced at the outset. Perhaps with upward mobility being restricted, and the hiring of forloughed pilots, they can bring their expertise to bear on organizing groups who are in need of it, best of luck.