Pilots pay

[secks]

Its actually quite simple. He's right about the other guy being wrong.

If you can't figure that out and answer that question on your own, he probably won't be able to break it down for you either.

Les

Yeah, probably not. After all, I am a complete idiot. You, on the other hand ...

B1900DFO made some good points about how the majors reward those who tolerate the terrible regional jobs in order to build hours. Is this a bad thing? Depends on who you ask.

Please tell me how he is "wrong". Don't bother pointing to flyhard's post; he failed to debate the point. He basically reiterated the fact that the regionals are a stepping stone to the majors, as if that is a justification for poor working conditions.

 

[peepsmover]

Jobs

I think the premise is wrong, the 121 carriers do not grant direct "rewards" for taking crappy jobs, to pin it on one element is too simplistic, as there are a variety of factors to consider. Besides crappy entry jobs are not solely unique to pilot careers. Certainly the way to earn the most desireable experience is debatable as there are a variety of success stories.

Those pilots who take a crappy job to get the experience are taking a chance, as there may not be a slot to the majors or whatever their ultimate goal is, much like it is now, so should they be faulted for doing so? Equally, should pilots from stronger airlines complain about the severe wage cuts pilots from airlines facing bankruptcy took? No, of course not, they all did what they had to do.

With numerous pilots from the majors laid off, the competition for those coveted jobs has become extremely difficult for those without 121 experience, therefore everyone is doing the best they can, given the situation they are in, and my hats off to all of them, whether its an afterburners-on, fly my lips off, pay me nothing/I pay you, or a person who is proceeding in a less agressive approach.

In the end it is ultimately an individual assessment there are no warranties. I wish you all much success with your efforts.

 

[B1900DFO]

Flyhard,

I really enjoyed your intelligent, well thought out reply. Impressive...

 

[acaTerry]

pilots/copilots/flight engineers were listed on tenth place after chief executives with 99505 dollars per year. Am I missing something on this picture????

Yes, you are missing something. MSNBC is full of Sh1t! Average? Negative Rafter Man. You'll go broke twice before the time you reach this kind of money. What MSNBC does is take the hourly pilot wage and multiply it by a 40 hour pay week. This comes to big bucks, IF you got paid for the 40 hour week. You'll average 180 hours duty, 300 hrs time away from home, and get paid 75-80 hours. This is quite different from the media and laypersons take on pilot pay.

 

[FlyinBrian]

First of all, most Department of Labor wage statistics use MEDIAN income instead of average. This explains why the number is so high. I think an average would be much lower.

Secondly, this number includes the wages only of currently employed pilots. Just imagine how the median or average income would come down if you included all the furloughs and people who are qualified but can't find a job...

Thirdly, it is not the interview boards responsable for the veritable hoarde of pilots scratching their way to a job at the majors. It is the high salaries on the top end that make the salaries on the low end so miserable. It is really very simple. The unions at the majors have removed the free-market forces that would otherwise determine their pay. As a result, they receive wages MUCH higher than the market would otherwise allow. This increases demand for those jobs, which in turn increases the supply of pilots trying to get them.

When you increase the supply of a good or service, the price (read: regional pilot salary) decrases. (assuming no changes in demand for that service.)

You can't escape economics...

 

[Draginass]

Would a F/O flying a 767 internationally and making $75k flying based in New York be considered an excessive salary? Well, that's what an AA F/O makes now. I'll bet bus drivers make pretty close to that. These salary comparisons done by so-called news medias are a crock.

 

[FlyinBrian]

You think a bus dirver makes 75K a year?

Here are the Y2K stats, provided by the U.S. department of labor...

Median annual earnings of airline pilots, copilots, and flight engineers were $110,940.

Median annual earnings of commercial pilots were $43,300

Median hourly earnings of transit and intercity busdrivers were $12.36 ($25,708 annualized)

Anyway, like it or not, $75K is above a market wage for an international 767 FO. Meaning of course, that if you removed the union contract and let the market set the salary according to each pilot's indivuidual values and choices, they would work for less.

But you had to pay your "dues" to get there. Paying the dues was suffering the economic fallout of the high salary that you now earn.

 

[FlyinBrian]

Good reading:

http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos107.htm

 

[secks]

It is the high salaries on the top end that make the salaries on the low end so miserable. It is really very simple. The unions at the majors have removed the free-market forces that would otherwise determine their pay. As a result, they receive wages MUCH higher than the market would otherwise allow. This increases demand for those jobs, which in turn increases the supply of pilots trying to get them.

Anyway, like it or not, $75K is above a market wage for an international 767 FO. Meaning of course, that if you removed the union contract and let the market set the salary according to each pilot's indivuidual values and choices, they would work for less.

But you had to pay your "dues" to get there. Paying the dues was suffering the economic fallout of the high salary that you now earn.

FlyinBrian:

I couldn't have said it better myself. The working conditions many pilots resent are a direct result of union-protected benefits at the majors. Pilots are willing to walk on their hands and knees through broken glass to earn a seat at a major. Thus, you've got a gigantic supply of pilots competing for very limited positions. In order to make themselves more marketable, pilots will stomach low wages in order to earn flight hours. This is common sense.

Ask yourself this: Who benefits from this system? The airlines do not. Unemployed pilots do not. Freelance/regional pilots do not. Consumers do not. The only group which benefits are currently employed airline pilots.

 

[peepsmover]

Free Market

I think you all are making some interesting points, and certainly at first glance there is some credence to your points, but to lay the woes of regional pilots or pilots in general at the feet of the Major Airline pilots really does not bear scrutiny.

First, the premise that unions stifle the free market is categorically false. United and American pilots took wage cuts, and like in all past economic downturns, pilots at other carriers have done the same all for the simple reason: operating costs exceeded revenues, if they hadn't neither of these companies would be in existence today. Furthermore, for most fleets, the establishment of the wages themselves reflect a multitude of factors: higher productivity in the way of more passengers, international flights, and more cargo, in short, higher revenue.
Case in point, most effecient yet low cost SWA still pays their pilots very well and offers them stock options.

Finally, the key point is that such wages were earned by pilots going on strike or threat of strike, as you may well know whether the company is small or large, depending on their benevolence for your wages yields poor wages. So being able to use your labor as leverage illuminates the free market perfectly. Some pilots were never recalled so not every strike has been successful.
Equally, labor rules are the most criticized, and certainly there are some that are not based on sound fiscal policy, however they chiefly are there to ensure the health and safety of the crew and the flight itself.

Hence, pilot wages at the Majors are dynamic reflecting the elements of a free market product. Union bashing makes for great headlines, but our success is reflected in our rules and wages, which hopefully you will get to someday enjoy as well. I would argue that the exorbiant salaries of CEOs have not even come close to taking paycuts that equal the percentages of either American or United pilots. In fact, Delta's management elected to set aside greater than $20 million dollars for executive retirement accounts that are protected from bankruptcy, workers obviously have to solely hope that the company will remain solvent long enough for them to retire from, and still remain solvent. So is that comforting to know that your management could care less if the company went bankrupt?

Still, there is no denying that pilots working their way up to a seat in the Majors are attracted by the attractive pay, but I've read where even some RJ Capts, are making over $100K, so its not only the majors, but heck, aspiring doctors, lawyers, and actors are all in competitive fields that do not pay well at the outset. As a result, aviation is no different or unique in that respect. I would suggest unionizing yourselves, but obviously nobody sees any benefit because everybody wants to build the time, to curry favor with management, to get the next higher job, and so it goes, but that too was a challenge that ALPA faced at the outset. Perhaps with upward mobility being restricted, and the hiring of forloughed pilots, they can bring their expertise to bear on organizing groups who are in need of it, best of luck.

 

[acaTerry]

Brian,
What is your current position? Is your profile up to date? I suppose you have not joined the airline ranks yet, or if you have, that you have not been in it long enough to speak with validity.
To say an international 767 FO making 75 big ones is overpaid is nuts. Pilots should be paid by
a) What the company can afford (if they can pay computer programmers 79,000 bucks--and they can because that is what my airline employed programmer brother in law STARTED at---then they can afford to pay pilots well)
b) What the job entails in terms of risk, job security, education requirements, professional requirements, positions reflection on the company, and benefit to the company per-hour of work performed
c) Longevity

Let's play comparison:
You say that the major airline pilots are overpaid. While the pilots are among the highest paid labor in the company, their pay is typically from less than 10% to perhaps as high as 19% of the operating expense. MGT is FAR higher, yet, generally speaking, less knowlegable about the AIRLINE business despite having a degree in it. Why? NO EXPERIENCE. In the good days, management people were line people who worked their way up to management. Now it's people who don't know sh1t from Shinola. To quote a former AAL executive: " I don't know one **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed plane from another, all I care about is profit". So, of course, he may know how to run a business, but not an AIRLINE business. And when times are tough, do they take a cut? No. If they do, they make sure they give themselves a big raise to get it back. In fact, their annual BONUS is bigger than the highest paid Captains ANNUAL SALARY.

Now let's take it outside of the airlines. According to your reason, AAA ball players should make the same money as Major League players. But you pay $12 for a dried up hot doag and warm beer that is mostly foam. Why? Because they have to pay the players, who are typically wife beaters, rapists, and tatooed from head to toe, tens of millions of dollars for a 5 year contract. Why? Because the player "might" be able to play only one season. Poor baby. Then he'll only make 4 million in his ONE YEAR CAREER.
Tell me he brings in the bucks to the teams owner. Well, who flies the planes for the airline? The programmer or the pilot?
So why don't you insist on the Major League ball players getting less pay so AAA players can make more? Why don't people demand ball players get less pay? Airline pilots are portrayed as greedy self-serving bums. WHY?
Talk all you want, you'll never convince me that pilots are overpaid. Been in this business for many years, and clawed up through a hell of a gauntlet to get there. I earned it, and the guys at DAL earned it. So did UAL. Did the pilots run UAL into bankruptcy or was it bad management? You know the answer. Major airline pilots earn what they get. You can't convince me otherwise.

 

[FlyinBrian]

What is your current position? Is your profile up to date? I suppose you have not joined the airline ranks yet, or if you have, that you have not been in it long enough to speak with validity.

I am currently an ALPA member on furlough from a regional airline. Perhaps I don't have the experience to debate the best crew hotels, but as an educated American, my economic views are as valid as yours.

To say an international 767 FO making 75 big ones is overpaid is nuts. Pilots should be paid by
a) What the company can afford (if they can pay computer programmers 79,000 bucks--and they can because that is what my airline employed programmer brother in law STARTED at---then they can afford to pay pilots well)
b) What the job entails in terms of risk, job security, education requirements, professional requirements, positions reflection on the company, and benefit to the company per-hour of work performed
c) Longevity

First of all, I never said anyone was "overpaid" I said that the wage was above what a free market would allow. If you don't believe this, than you think that your wage would be unaffected if you did not have a collective bargaining agreement.

I beleive there are two things that should determine the price of any good or service, whether it is peanut butter, or airline pilot labor. They are:
a)supply
b)demand

Based upon your logic, If I spend ten years of my life learning to polish turds, then work as a turd polisher for a few years, you should be obligated to pay me $50 per turd that I polish. After all, you can afford it, $50 is a minicule percentage of your operating costs as a human being, I have spent numerous years earning the highest turd polishing credentials, I have risked disease and public humiliation. Therefore, I am worth $50 per turd regardless of whether or not there is any demand for my service, and regardless of how many other turd polishers would do it for $25.

I am not defending the ethics of any Airline CEO's, I am not saying that our professional licenses and certifications are not worth $75K a year. I am just saying that the economic pressures that result from these high salaries drive the wages down at regional airlines. You call it "paying your dues," and that's fine. I just happen to beleive that we would be better off in the long run if we allowed each pilot to judge for himself what his labor is worth rather than have the union dictate it. I am NOT a union basher, I don't want the unions to go away, I just want them to stop telling me what I'm worth. I know that I am not entitled to a job or a high salary. I know that if I am unhappy with work rules or my salary, I can walk at any time. I don't demand that someone pay me because they can afford to, I demand that they pay me because my service is worth it. I don't demand that my friends sacrifice their livelihood for my benefit. I trust that they will all make wise decisions about what pay and condidtions they will accept, and I will not criticize them just because I would have chosen differently.

A free market produces and allocates goods and services better than any other system ever could. It is the most moral and ethical system imaginable because it never demands a sacrifice of anybody. Every transaction is agreed to for the benefit of both parties. Billions of tiny individual agreements that all benefit all parties to that agreement...

That's the system I beleive in. One in which my life does not depend upon the sacrifices of others, but on mutual consent with those I choose to do business with.

Because I can feel the sharks circling as I write this, I must say one more time... I am not anti-union. I am pro-market.

 

[peepsmover]

Free Market Utopia

Am sincerely sorry to hear about you being on forlough, hopefully you will get back soon.

I am puzzled by your logic, in that you state you are for Free Market, that it is a system you believe in, etc, yet you are not willing to accept that a contract forged in the Free Market, which pays these high salaries in the Majors is representative of the Free Market?

Also your analogy about polishing turds is really not a good one, since nobody cares to pay anybody to polish turds, certainly I know you were joking, but the better one is to simply use the one you want, which is a pilot. Even then if we would substitute the term "pilot" for "turd polisher" in your analogy it still doesn't strengthen it. Simply put, being a pilot requires a different skill set, depending on the complexity of aircraft, and place of operation. Point, if a 747 captain retired, would it be prudent for an airline to then replace the pilot with just anybody, or a pilot who has international flight experience, understands their flight operations, and knows how to manage the complexity of international inflight operations/emergencies? Undoubtedly thousands of pilots would even pay the company to fly that aircraft just to get the experience, but do you honestly think that an airline is going to let someone like that lead a flight crew across the Pacific, can you imagine the liabilities and risks the company would be taking, obviously the company recognizes the value of experience and wisdom, and rewards accordingly.

Additionally, in the utopia you write about, where you state that you do not want the union to tell you how much you are worth, that you'd rather develop your own worth, come up with a figure, and then ask the company, how naive is that? What do you do if you don't like their answer? Walk, right? Besides, why would they care what you think, they would say thats nice, but we are going to pay you this crappy wage and if you don't like it, too bad, because the more we can squeeze out of you the bigger our bonuses to our short term managers.

Besides, through the Union we all collectively aid in determining our negotiating position, through our representatives we submit our goals, and in turn, by conducting market research we establish our negotiating position...a true free market exercise if there ever was one, except we send a collective message, pretty simple...power in numbers.

I think you are confused with the term Free Market itself, in that you describe it as some heightened, altrustic, manna from heaven, it being all moral and all ethical...please. Actually what you are advocating is that we scrap our current free market system for the Majors, where wages are bargained for, determined on a variety of factors, where pilots are more productive, yeilding higher profits and revenues, and in turn surrender our productivity to you, so that your wages are increased, yet you are neither as productive as we are, how anti-free market is that?

Furthermore, the hilarious Free Market that you describe does not exist anywhere, it is neither moral nor ethical, it is simply economical, political, and at times certain segments are easily manipulated by powerful economic actors.

You write about a time that maybe existed in a barter economy, you can't simply walk up to an airline and ask them if they need somebody to fly their flight 706 to MIA, that day, get real. This is the world of big corporations, it is not effecient for them to bargain with all these individuals. Also your qoute "One in which my life does not depend upon the sacrifices of others, but on mutual consent with those I choose to do business with." Good luck, all I can say is you should stock up on KY lubricant...you are going to need it. Oh and when you get back to your Regional as you claim you are in, tell them you do not want to work under their contract, or work rules, because after all you have no desire to enjoy the sacrifices of those who came before you and earned those wages or work rules, right? Better yet, call up your company and tell them you do not want recall rights, but that you'd be interested in entering a personal services contract with them...they might then let you drive their lav service truck.

Finally, in your statement that overpaid and being paid above market rates, are not the same, perfectly illuminates your confusion on economics and what actually constitutes a free market system. Good luck with getting back to your "regional," but since you are such a self-styled successful loner, creating your own luck, etc, just turn in your ALPA card and go work for places where there are no unions, you'd be a perfect for each other.

 

[FlyinBrian]

Sorry chum, it is you who doesn't understand the free market. A free market requires that individual people and companies be free to make their own decisions about how much they are willing to pay or accept for goods and services. If any entity (such as a government or union) restricts this ability, the market is no longer free.

You are precisely correct in that your option is to walk if you don't like the pay or the working conditions. Likewise, youe employer has the option of looking elsewhere for labor. Everybody is free to do as they choose. Many engineers make well into 6 figures without unions. Why aren't they forces to scrape by and stock up on KY?

The turd polisher anaolgy is meant to take an argument to its logical conlusion. (i.e. a service for which there could be a very high supply and almost no demand.) The reason it can also apply to pilots in this economy is because the supply of qualified and willing pilots is much higher than the number of available jobs. (The same could be said of the turd polisher.) In the case of Engineers, the number of qualified and willing employees almost exactly matches the number of jobs available. That's what the free market does.

You say that I should go try to work without the contractual provisions that protect me. I would absolutely do that if I could. (Not at that company perhaps) The reason I can't is because the union would do it's best to make my career as miserable as possible because I made a choice that affected my life. The union assumes that It is my duty to sacrifice my values to theirs when called upon to do so, but never sacrifices it's values to mine. It beleives in the rights of the collective, I beleive in the rights of the individual. It's very much akin to socialism vs. capitalism. Socialism attempts to ensure equity and fairness by restricting the rights of individuals, and demanding that everyone serve the collective good instead of thier own individual desires.

History has not proven this system effective at keeping countries in business.

 

[peepsmover]

Econ 101

Dude,

Your ignorance is most telling in your simplistic statements which hold no relevance whether they are in context or out of context.

You equate an engineer's good salary with what? There are plenty of engineers, pilots and other professionals who are unemployed from their previous 6 figure salary, your point being?

Equally for some reason you equate the willingness of somebody who wants to work with employability, how ludicrous is that? Certainly a lot of people would love to fly a 747-400, and could be trained, but, again the airline company is going to want somebody with experience and good judgement, that has nothing to do with an applicant's willingness, and the same for any airframe, the company wants pilots who are skilled etc, the fact of the matter is that there is only one way to obtain that, in short, it takes time and years, and that in of itself is where the value of an individual is earned, sheer willingness has nothing to do with it.

What seems apparent to me is your distaste for not having experience, for having to pay your dues, in that you dis your union because as you claim, they have never done anything for you, at this point you should simply decline to be recalled, since you see no benefit of union membership, presumably this includes the recall benefit. Still, I suspect you are not a member of ALPA, because your statements are so devoid of any cogent thought whether it is the "free market" (there isn't one) and the value of union membership. Simply put, you will only be hired by a major when you have earned the requisite skill set that allows you to gain an apprenticeship to Capt., ...they don't dole out such assignments out of your sheer willingness to accept them.

For example, you can go work for a lot of other carriers who are not unionized, but again your skill set is way below their standards, so again your willingness has nothing to do with your marketability, so don't lay your lack of employability at the feet of the unions, rather it is your inexperience.

Finally, the socialist aspect you allude to about unions is hilarious, ok, then give up your weekends and send your children to work, since unions helped create the 40 hour work week, as well as the elimination of child labor, we all know how bad that has been for America. Also bone up on some basic economic theory grounded in reality. Apparently you read the first two pages of Econ 101 and now your a Nobel contender for economic theory, the classic supply and demand is exactly that, "a classic" when you place it into the context of other market forces, then you are starting to get somewhere. However your holier than though free market, has never existed and never will, clue try The Economist there it talks about the real market.

 

[FL717]

I’d be interested in hearing you comments…

Actually I've changed my mind. I really don't care. There are some "errors" in some peoples thinking on this subject. Its just not worth it to even begin to offer anything around here anymore.

Good luck... you'll need it.

 

[Wiggums]

Good luck... you'll need it.

Why, not working for substandard pay at crappy companies is going to hurt my career?

 

[marqmarq]

Pilot pay

If this was taken from the same place our local rag took it from (Bureau of Labor Statistics, I think), it was based on the "hourly" rate, rather than an annual average. College professors and teachers were listed among the top paid professional along with pilots in our area. We all know that teachers only 'work' 25 hours week, 9 months per year, college professional only 'work' 9-12 hours a week, 9 months per year and pilots only 'work' 70 hours a month.

The problem is perspective. Most people in the work force multiply $ per hour by 2080 hours. If pilots make $50/hour then they must make over $100K a year, average. Most college profs I know make $40-50k a year and most teachers less than that. The hourly average looks real high when the annual salary is divided by 'working hours'. This is just crappy sensationalistic 'journalism' meant to incite people, not inform them. It is sad when so-called 'legitimate' print journalism sinks down to the 2nd lowest level of info-tainment, cable TV news.