Pilots expected to picket Warren Buffett-owned NetJets

[FamilyGuy]

Pay me 60 percent more and I MIGHT consider paying for my healthcare costs. Basically compare apples to apples.

Until then the only people brining up that we don't pay any healthcare costs are those that got it taken away from them.

Low hanging fruit as it were.

Fair enough. So for an apples to apples comparison, which fleet type in the Delta fleet do you think is the best comparison to NetJets, on an apples to apples basis? The EMB190? CRJ900? Something else?

I guess the company doesn't really value everyone. Record profits and have they given one thing back they have taken? Nope.

They did restore the 401k matching, but your point is valid. There has been a lot of erosion under jordan. Hopefully AJ and Bill can restore some of those lost benefits.

 

[Diesel]

Fair enough. So for an apples to apples comparison, which fleet type in the Delta fleet do you think is the best comparison to NetJets, on an apples to apples basis? The EMB190? CRJ900? Something else?




They did restore the 401k matching, but your point is valid. There has been a lot of erosion under jordan. Hopefully AJ and Bill can restore some of those lost benefits.

Are we going by passenger count?

 

[gutshotdraw]

Guess who wins if we go by cumulative net worth on board.....

 

[jonjuan]

Guess who wins if we go by cumulative net worth on board.....

Nj management.

 

[OPECJet]

Fair enough. So for an apples to apples comparison, which fleet type in the Delta fleet do you think is the best comparison to NetJets, on an apples to apples basis? The EMB190? CRJ900? Something else?




They did restore the 401k matching, but your point is valid. There has been a lot of erosion under jordan. Hopefully AJ and Bill can restore some of those lost benefits.

Wonder if PRIA requests have risen since the company told us what they think we're worth.

 

[acaTerry]

I did...

Lucky bum. Working on it.

 

[NJAowner]

Guess who wins if we go by cumulative net worth on board.....

Actually probably Delta. While there are a few billionaires flying NetJets, most ultra-ultra high net worth individuals have their own jet (or their company does). So NetJets appeals to those in the $25MM-$500MM range. Filling up 6 seats with family members may not increase the cumulative net worth of those on board. On the other hand a Delta plane with 250 passengers, including quite a few $5MM-$20MM individuals, along with many other passengers, probably beats NetJets. NetJets would win hands down on average net worth per passenger.

 

[MasterOfYaw]

Fair enough. So for an apples to apples comparison, which fleet type in the Delta fleet do you think is the best comparison to NetJets, on an apples to apples basis? The EMB190? CRJ900? Something else?




Let's use revenue generated by the planes. Delta recently reported 14 cents per available seat mile. Let's say the average plane goes 500 miles in an hour (probably a bit generous, but Delta has been near 15 cents recently). Now let's say a NetJets plane generates $11,000 of revenue per hour (Net Jets has planes above and below that number). That works out to a 157 seat Jet, so say 737.

 

[ghostrider64]

Tell GIV dude that if I was his economics professor I'd fail him. Apparently his supply and demand argument that is going to reward us with higher pay isn't occurring.

Netjets offer was...drum roll....please.

2% them 1% for an additional 8 years of a contract.

 

[Diesel]

Family guy and GIV have been eerily quiet.

Another pilot in recurrent had me laughing so hard. He said that GIV thinks I hate him. I was laughing at the comment because I think that would be giving GIV too much credit to think he means something to me.

His misguided posts. His naive view of the industry. His lack of knowledge of the process and then being proven wrong at every milestone. His ability to stick to his guns when everyone around him tells him he's wrong and then gets proven he's wrong. That takes fanatical dedication.

I don't hate any of that. I sure as heck don't hate GIV because without the above we wouldn't understand why this contract is taking so long and what the mindset is of those continuously working against the pilot group is.

The day GIV changes his mindset and those like minded do to then we will have a contract and this will be done. GIV is my canary in the coal mine.

Hell I might even send him a Facebook request.

 

[gunfyter]

Since we fly smaller planes than Delta ... we should only get 49% of Delta pay?

What if we apply that to all the other employees at NJ?

Why should the pilots be the only ones working for 49% of Delta?:crying:


I suggested the Union make an APP utilizing this info so people could see what 49% of Delta is for their jobs

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Delta-Air-Lines-Salaries-E197.htm

 

[kevin_p]

Should bus drivers get paid more than limo drivers/chauffeurs? Of course not. They're both professional drivers.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Since we fly smaller planes than Delta ... we should only get 49% of Delta pay?

What if we apply that to all the other employees at NJ?

Why should the pilots be the only ones working for 49% of Delta?:crying:


I suggested the Union make an APP utilizing this info so people could see what 49% of Delta is for their jobs

http://www.glassdoor.com/Salary/Delta-Air-Lines-Salaries-E197.htm

The link you provided says that Delta pilots get paid an average of $106,403. Are you saying NetJets pilots are currently only getting $52,137 on average?

 

[FamilyGuy]

Fair enough. So for an apples to apples comparison, which fleet type in the Delta fleet do you think is the best comparison to NetJets, on an apples to apples basis? The EMB190? CRJ900? Something else?




Let's use revenue generated by the planes. Delta recently reported 14 cents per available seat mile. Let's say the average plane goes 500 miles in an hour (probably a bit generous, but Delta has been near 15 cents recently). Now let's say a NetJets plane generates $11,000 of revenue per hour (Net Jets has planes above and below that number). That works out to a 157 seat Jet, so say 737.

Okay, assuming we take that argument at face value, shouldn't you also account for costs per hour of flight?

 

[FamilyGuy]

Are we going by passenger count?

That's the most obvious comparison, but I'm open to using others.

I'd just like to understand what you think is fair and the rationale for using that particular comparison.

 

[Diesel]

That's the most obvious comparison, but I'm open to using others.

I'd just like to understand what you think is fair and the rationale for using that particular comparison.

Well if you go by passenger count then Fedex pilots are grossly overpaid.

 

[fischman]

FamilyGuy,

How about you keep the negotiating in the negotiating room? You know our price.

 

[gunfyter]

The link you provided says that Delta pilots get paid an average of $106,403. Are you saying NetJets pilots are currently only getting $52,137 on average?

No I am saying NJA pay is 49% of Delta pay

The site is wrong about Delta pilot pay .... unless they are talking about 1st year pay. Then it would be approximately correct 56875 v 106K for Delta.

Perhaps it is wrong about some of the other occupation pay as well ... Find out what Delta pays for your job and multiply by 49%. Since NJ flies small planes we all need to work for 49% of Delta, no?

Don't tell me you aren't happy with 49% of Delta! :bawling:



http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/delta_air_lines

 

[Diesel]

FamilyGuy,

How about you keep the negotiating in the negotiating room? You know our price.

He can't do that. He has to try it out here to see what floats and what doesn't.

 

[imacdog]

Okay, assuming we take that argument at face value, shouldn't you also account for costs per hour of flight?

You sure you want to go down the road of how many support personnel are required for an airliner versus two NJA pilots taking care of all ancillary duties in addition to flying?

 

[BentOver]

Your biggest downfall will be all the years of NJA pilots saying " we're not an airline!"

But now you all want to be directly compared to airline pilots.... If I were management I'd point this out

 

[gunfyter]

Your biggest downfall will be all the years of NJA pilots saying " we're not an airline!"

But now you all want to be directly compared to airline pilots.... If I were management I'd point this out

I'm looking at my certificate ... It says Airline Transport Pilot ....

Next!

 

[BentOver]

I'm looking at my certificate ... It says Airline Transport Pilot ....

Next!

Obviously....but for the last how many years has the quote always been " we're not an airline" typically for good reason...

Unfortunately the tables have turned and the airlines are back on top... But it wouldn't take long for management to find Union rhetoric stating " we're not an airline....." And no matter how insignificant, some judge without a clue could use that

 

[MasterOfYaw]

Okay, assuming we take that argument at face value, shouldn't you also account for costs per hour of flight?

Merely trying to refute the argument that NJ doesn't make enough to pay us because or planes are "small". Our mid and large cabin planes generate plenty of revenue compared to their airline brethren. I don't doubt the company having to adjust the business model (away from the lower revenue aircraft) once they pay us a wage more in line with the going rate, but that is their job. Same as when any other business cost goes up. If competition keeps you from adjusting prices to cover the cost, you shrink your marginal product lines and shift toward the more productive assets which have less competition. A company which says they can only survive by paying well below the going rate for one of their costs and refuses to adjust the business model to recognize the current reality is unlikely to be around for the long haul. I sincerely hope that's not us.

 

[imacdog]

Obviously....but for the last how many years has the quote always been " we're not an airline" typically for good reason...

Unfortunately the tables have turned and the airlines are back on top... But it wouldn't take long for management to find Union rhetoric stating " we're not an airline....." And no matter how insignificant, some judge without a clue could use that

We aren't an airline. What we do demands far more from our pilots than airline pilots.

 

[ghostrider64]

We aren't an airline. What we do demands far more from our pilots than airline pilots.

Absolutely correct, and multiple times a day, with longer days. There is no doubt if we provide bad service, ala airlines, we will hear about it. In other words our level of jeopardy is ten fold that of any other group of pilots. Exposure to pax unknown, with unknown demands, saying the wrong thing at the wrong time could lead rapidly to the street. When was the last time any of us, traveling in civies, had an I depth conversation with the cockpit crew? Hell most of the time they are hiding behind a closed cockpit door.

All of this said, we demand pay commensurate with the hours we work, and the days away from our families. We serve the wealthy, they should respect us enough to ensure we have very few financial and healthcare worries at home, while we are flying for THEM!

 

[FamilyGuy]

Well if you go by passenger count then Fedex pilots are grossly overpaid.

Nice deflection.

I?m still waiting for you to provide your apples to apples comparison. Which Delta fleet do you think NJ should be compared to and what is your rationale for that choice?

 

[FamilyGuy]

FamilyGuy,

How about you keep the negotiating in the negotiating room? You know our price.

Who is negotiating? I?m merely offering rebuttals to points made here by others and asking some questions to try and clarify what people are saying.

I?m all in favor of keeping the negotiating in the negotiating room, but doesn?t that apply equally to both sides?

I think a lot of progress is being made with AJ and Bill at the helm and we should all let the two teams of negotiators hammer out a deal that works for both sides.

 

[FamilyGuy]

No I am saying NJA pay is 49% of Delta pay

The site is wrong about Delta pilot pay .... unless they are talking about 1st year pay. Then it would be approximately correct 56875 v 106K for Delta.

Perhaps it is wrong about some of the other occupation pay as well ... Find out what Delta pays for your job and multiply by 49%. Since NJ flies small planes we all need to work for 49% of Delta, no?

Don't tell me you aren't happy with 49% of Delta! :bawling:

Gunfyter -I can see where you get the $56,875 for 1st year FO at NJ, but I don't see where you are getting $106k for a first year FO at Delta. $106k for a first year pilot at Delta looks like a first year Captain pay. Surely you didn't mean to compare FO and CPT payscales?

 

[gunfyter]

Gunfyter -I can see where you get the $56,875 for 1st year FO at NJ, but I don't see where you are getting $106k for a first year FO at Delta. $106k for a first year pilot at Delta looks like a first year Captain pay. Surely you didn't mean to compare FO and CPT payscales?

I got the $106k from you.

No captain at Delta makes $106K